Woodward Family · O.J. Woodward III Interview Part 2

Title

eng O.J. Woodward III Interview Part 2

Creator

eng Woodward III, O.J.

eng Gorman, Michael

Relation

eng Woodward Family Collection

Coverage

eng California State University, Fresno

Date

eng 2/6/2007

Format

eng Microsoft Word document, 39 pages

Identifier

eng SCMS_wwfc_00002

extracted text

Session 2
MG:

It's February the 6th, 2007, and we're continuing an oral history interview with O. J.
Woodward III, Jim Woodward. I'm Michael Gorman, I'm the Dean of Library
Services at California State University for the next three days. I thought we might
begin, Jim, by asking you – we reviewed your family history in Fresno and
involvement – if there was anything that came up concerning your father,
grandfather, great-grandfather that you wanted to add, or something that occurred
to you after we spoke.

JW:

Not really. I think we covered quite a bit of material last time.

MG:

Very good. Well, let's start with you, then. You were born in 1935?

JW:

Right.

MG:

In Fresno?

JW:

No, actually in Oakland, California. And that was about two months before my
great-grandfather passed away.

MG:

Okay. And your family all lived in Oakland at the time?

JW:

They did. My dad had just returned from the Harvard Business School and was
working in San Francisco with an investment firm, and that's why we were in the
Oakland area.

MG:

And you are one of how many siblings?

JW:

Well, two. Although my father did remarry, so I have two half-sisters as well. So
four.

MG:

So there are five of you in all.

JW:

Four.

Jim Woodward

MG:

Four of you. And you went to school to begin with as a young child in Oakland?

JW:

No. Actually, what happened, when I was about five years old, in 1940, my

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grandfather passed away, and so we moved back to Fresno.
MG:

So your father had to look after the business.

JW:

Exactly. So from that time on, we were pretty much a permanent resident again.
So I began school in Fresno, in fact at the old Bullard Grammar School where Ruth
Gibson was the principal, and she now has a school named after her. It was the old
one classroom per grade approach, and a very good school, a lot of the kids did
very well-

MG:

Where was Bullard Grammar school?

JW:

It was on the southwest corner of Palm and Shaw. It was right now where a bank is
located.

MG:

And a strip mall. So you went there at the beginning of the war?

JW:

Right. I remember very well, we just moved into a new home in Old Fig Garden
area, and I remember that morning gathered around the radio very well.

MG:

When you first moved to Fresno, you lived also in Fig Garden?

JW:

Well, when we first moved, we lived with my grandmother because their house was
large enough to accommodate us. So since my grandfather had just passed away, it
made a lot of sense to just –

MG:

Where was that house?

JW:

That was on the northeast corner of Saginaw and Wilson Avenues in Old Fig
Garden.

MG:

And then your father built a new house?

Jim Woodward

JW:

Right, just north up on Wilson and Indianapolis.

MG:

Did you walk to school?

JW:

Most of the time. Either that or with bicycles, I remember very well.

MG:

Do you remember anything about the war and it affecting life in Fresno?

JW:

Oh, very well. There are several aspects that I remember best. I remember my

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grandparents had had a Japanese family living with them, and I remember driving
them up Palm Avenue to Pinedale area to report to the camp –
MG:

That was kind of a center for them to be interned.

JW:

Right, which –

MG:

Including children?

JW:

Yes. In fact, it's a location where in just a couple of weeks they're going to be
actually be dedicating a remembrance monument, on that Remembrance Day,
which is now pretty much in place.

MG:

Were there other effects of the war, and you know, things that nature.

JW:

Oh, absolutely. I remember the victory gardens where we actually not only raised
everything from rhubarb to watermelons and corn and potatoes, but even chickens.
We had enough property that we could do that, so absolutely. I remember
particularly the gas shortage at that time and having to have the stickers in the
particular categories to get gasoline, and so forth. There were a lot of aspects. I
remember in the car going down, and my father picking up the results or the,
getting the news as to the draft reporting, and so forth. He didn't go because he was
apparently unable to qualify for some particular aspect. But yes, even though
you're fairly young, you remember those important –

Jim Woodward

MG:

And were there neighbors or family that were in the military?

JW:

Absolutely. I had an uncle who was in the Air Force, was a captain in the Air

4

Force, and others. The other thing I remember particularly is the end of the war
and being in a particular market place just south of what's now City College, and
where Fresno State was. And I also remember during that course, the old Hotel
Californian was quite a gathering place and was kind of the hotel and had a room
called the Bamboo Room. And people would go in after dinner or with dinner and
sing along a lot of the old victory songs, and all of that kind of thing.
MG:

You were ten when the war ended?

JW:

I beg your pardon, Yes.

MG:

And still going to Bullard?

JW:

Yes, at that time.

MG:

And where did you go after Bullard Grammar School?

JW:

I went to Hamilton Junior High School. I also – for one semester in junior high
school I went to a private school up in the Bay Area, in San Rafael, called
Tamalpais, a boys school, which I later returned to to go to my last two years of
high school, after going to Fresno High for two years.

MG:

Why did you go there for one semester?

JW:

The family was somewhat disrupted at the time, with my parents in a divorce
situation.

MG:

Oh I see. It was a boarding school?

JW:

Yes. It's in San Rafael. It is no longer in existence. It was right across from the
Dominican Convent.

Jim Woodward

MG:

5

I’ve visited the library there; it’s a very beautiful spot, very lovely campus. So you
went there and then came back to go to Fresno High?

JW:

Fresno High for two years. I don't recall the exact circumstances or reasons that I
went back up there for the last two years, other than I know I do recall that it was
really my choice. It just seemed like a good move. I was pretty involved in
athletics and other things, and as long as I could still participate in athletics, I was a
pretty happy camper.

MG:

Did you go there during the week and back on weekends, or you just stayed there?

JW:

I stayed there most of the time. I had friends at the school who lived in San
Francisco and on the Peninsula, and I would go home with them quite often to their
homes, so it was a good exposure for me at that time.

MG:

So in your high schools, you were interested in which sports?

JW:

Well, I was interested in most sports, to tell you the truth. I'd done a lot of
competitive swimming when I was younger. I started when I was about nine. But I
also – there, being a smaller school and a smaller conference, I participated in
football and basketball and baseball and track and swimming, and just about
everything. I probably did better in basketball, track, and swimming than anything
else.

MG:

Did you leave any time for any academic activities?

JW:

Well, at least my parents hoped so. I was student body president at the last year of
the school, which included more than just high school, actually all the grades. But
I did reasonably well, and I was accepted to Berkeley.

MG:

Was that your only choice, or did you –

Jim Woodward

JW:

6

At the time, my sister had spent a short time at Stanford, but later came to
Berkeley. Both of my parents and some other relatives had all gone to Berkeley.
So I think it was –

MG:

You really didn't think about Stanford?

JW:

Not as an undergraduate, no I didn’t.

MG:

At Berkeley, this was quite a bit before the social ferment?

JW:

Yes.

MG:

Was it a more tranquil place than it became ten years later?

JW:

We were accused of being a very apathetic group in those days, but that soon
changed. I participated in being in school there, not only when it started to get a
little more difficult and disruptive, but then came back later and was on the legal
staff of the university, for the regents, so I got very much involved in the midsixties.

MG:

As a student, it was a more tranquil time?

JW:

It was, until the veterans from Korea started coming back, and there were some real
confrontational moments. There was a lot going on then. I know we had a couple
fellows in our fraternity who came back and were really struggling with their
experience over there, and so forth. It was part of the educational experience.

MG:

You went there in 1953?

JW:

Yes.

MG:

Until what, '57?

Jim Woodward

JW:

7

Until '58. I actually took an extra semester, primarily, to be honest, to play another
year of rugby. But I'd gotten involved in that and ran a little track also, but
primarily my interest, as far as the athletics, was in rugby.

MG:

Did you go there with a particular major in mind?

JW:

I actually did. I had an interesting experience. I had spent the prior summer in an
oil field in Colorado with a friend of mine whose uncle had a field there, a wildcat
thing. So, we went there primarily to earn money, but I got interested in the whole
thing. So when I came back to Berkeley that first year, I was going to go into
geology. Then I went to my first class in chemistry, and chemistry at Berkeley is
what I call a foreign language. (chuckles) Because, it was another experience. But
I decided quite quickly that that probably wasn't going to be my best –

MG:

It was a prerequisite-

JW:

Yes, for geology, and so forth. So I then went to a more general curriculum – they
had that in those days – because it gave the greatest flexibility. I had always
planned on going on to graduate school, not knowing whether it might be law
school or business school, or whatever. My theory was always somewhat of a
pyramid in terms of education. The broader base that one can have – and not
everyone has that opportunity – really builds a better foundation for where you can
always specialize later.

MG:

So you had a broad kind of liberal arts education?

JW:

As I recall, they changed while I was there away from general curriculum type of
approach, so I took political science, not because of the law school aspect but really
because it gave me the most flexibility in courses. I took everything from

Jim Woodward

8

Scandinavian literature to Russian geography to fifteen units of Spanish, just a
variety of things. I've always felt that that was one of my better decisions.
MG:

Sure. So in 1958 you were graduating from Berkeley.

JW:

Right.

MG:

And you had a very clear idea of where you were going at that time?

JW:

Well, not quite, but I was in one of the last, if not the last, year of ROTC with a sixmonth obligation. So I went back to Fort Sill and then to Fort Ord for six months,
still trying to decide between law school and business school, and-

MG:

There was no further obligation, there wasn't any question of you staying in the
forces?

JW:

There were seven and a half years of reserve, which was handled primarily by
either meetings once a week or weekends, that type of thing. And also summer
camp and sometimes correspondence courses.

MG:

Did that all take place in Fort Ord?

JW:

Well, in Fort Sill. I went to Fort Sill first.

MG:

Where is Fort Sill?

JW:

That's in Lawton, Oklahoma. That was field artillery and guided missile school at
the time.

MG:

Back to the oil wells.

JW:

Back to the oil wells. (chuckles) It was an interesting experience also. But only
four months, and then I came back to Fort Ord for the last two months, so that was
pretty good duty. At that point, having been married in June of 1958, I had to
decide what I was going to do in terms of school. I did arrange for an interim

Jim Woodward

9

period there, for nine months, to work with PG&E in San Francisco while I went
through the process. I decided on business school because it was going to be two
years instead of three years. Then I decided on Stanford over Harvard because they
have a quarter system, which I could go straight through and get out a little bit
earlier. Of course, the irony of that is that I turned right around after I got through
business school and went to law school. I don't know how that makes any sense.
MG:

You were first married in 1958?

JW:

Yes.

MG:

Where did you meet your wife?

JW:

At Berkeley.

MG:

Was she a fellow student?

JW:

Yes.

MG:

In Scandinavian literature or one of those?

JW:

(laughs) Probably a fraternity/sorority function, or through the rugby – as I'm sure
you well know, one of the advantages of rugby are the parties afterwards.
(chuckles)

MG:

A certain amount of beer is taken I understand.

JW:

Yes, that's part of the requirement.

MG:

And your wife's name was?

JW:

Diane, and she was from San Diego.

MG:

What was her birth name? What was her name at birth?

JW:

Well, coincidentally, her name at birth was Woodward. Her mother had divorced
and remarried, and so it was then Phillips.

Jim Woodward

10

MG:

So she went by Diane Phillips.

JW:

Yes.

MG:

But she was actually born Woodward, but no connection.

JW:

As far as we knew, anyway. Not as far as we could tell.

MG:

And you were married in 1958 in Berkeley?

JW:

Actually, in San Diego.

MG:

In San Diego at a church ceremony?

JW:

Yes. In fact, had an interesting experience much later where that church was turned
into a restaurant. Only I didn't recognize it until after I was well in it, but anyway.
They actually wrote a –

MG:

What church was it? Episcopalian?

JW:

It was a Methodist church, because her grandparents were quite involved in that
church. It was one of the old churches downtown.

MG:

Were her family from San Diego?

JW:

Originally, really from Tulsa, Oklahoma, but then a significant number of their
family had moved to San Diego and had business interests there, as well as in
Tulsa.

MG:

You were married in 1958 in San Diego at the Methodist Church. You were then
living, though, in the Bay Area.

JW:

When we came back from the Fort Sill experience, and so forth, yes, we lived in
San Francisco while I worked at PG&E and waited for the results for school.

MG:

Where in San Francisco?

Jim Woodward

JW:

11

We lived out on Fontsan, out by Golden Gate Park, which was a good experience.
What I found was, it was easier to commute from outside the city than probably
inside the city to downtown. But it was a good experience.

MG:

You were working in downtown San Francisco, and then you went to Stanford.
Where did you live when you were at Stanford?

JW:

We had an apartment in Menlo Park, just to the south of the campus.

MG:

So you went to business school in 1959?

JW:

Yes.

MG:

And it took two years?

JW:

Yes.

MG:

So you were out in '61.

JW:

Right.

MG:

And still living in Menlo Park and graduated with a master's degree in business.

JW:

Right. But about half way through business school, I finally got a little more
focused on the academics and considered several possibilities. One would be to go
on with the CPA program, because I had all the classes. But, of course, that
requires some actual practice, which I think is good, I mean to do. I wasn't sure I
was that committed. I thought about going on with a Ph.D. program in business,
but I wasn't sure I was really that committed to just teaching or research, and so
forth. So I opted for law school, which I felt gave me more flexibility and more
options. One of my philosophies has always been with my kids is that options are
good. So the more that one is able to prepare for that, I think the better. Not
everyone again, has that opportunity.

Jim Woodward

12

MG:

So in 1961 you decided to go to law school?

JW:

Right.

MG:

And you went to –

JW:

I went back to Berkeley.

MG:

Did you consider any others?

JW:

I considered Stanford. Those were the only two I really considered, but I felt that
they were equal in almost every way, and, frankly, the price tag for Berkeley was –
and I thought I'd done enough damage to my parents at that point.

MG:

I imagine, by today's standards, that the fees for Berkeley Law School were
probably pretty low.

JW:

They were. I mean, other than the living expense, which was a real aspect. You're
absolutely right. It was just nothing. It was less than a hundred dollars in terms of
fees and so forth.

MG:

Was Stanford – I know it's obviously higher than Berkeley, but would they be
charging less than say private schools in the East?

JW:

I don't know specifically. I don't recall comparing –

MG:

Stanford began with a kind of philosophy of having relatively low – in fact, I think
in the beginning, no fees at all.

JW:

When I was at the business school, it was three hundred dollars a quarter, so it was
just under a thousand dollars for a year.

MG:

Its astounding isn’t it?

JW:

Yes, it's very different. But what we did in terms of living expense, it turned out I
convinced my dad the best approach for living expense was to buy a house in

Jim Woodward

13

Berkeley, which we did. We made some money, and our agreement was that if we
could do it net free, after insurance and all the other – anything above that, I could
keep, was mine, which was another pretty good – and it enabled us to buy our first
automobile.
MG:

You bought a house in Berkeley in 1961?

JW:

In '61 and then sold it in '64 when I graduated.

MG:

Where was it?

JW:

On Parnassus Road, up towards Tilden Park.

MG:

Is that up in the hills?

JW:

Yeah, about two-thirds of the way up the hill. It was very, obviously, small, but it
worked out very well.

MG:

And if you'd kept it –

JW:

It would even be better. (both laugh)

MG:

Let's backtrack on the personal side. Did you have children while you were at law
school?

JW:

I was just going to mention that. During finals of my second year, so in '63, we had
our first child, a boy.

MG:

And his name?

JW:

Baron.

MG:

With one r or two r’s?

JW:

One r.

MG:

And his middle name?

JW:

James.

Jim Woodward

14

MG:

Baron James Woodward. He was born in 1963.

JW:

Mm-hmm. So that kept us occupied. That was an interesting experience, having a
child right in the middle of finals.

MG:

Was your wife working?

JW:

Nothing regular. She did while we were at Stanford, but not –

MG:

Did you work while you were in graduate school?

JW:

I did to this degree, I decided after the first semester of law school – and was
assured that I was in good standing and well-positioned – instead of trying to even
improve on that, I decided to go over to the business school and be a TA, teaching
assistant, which worked well for several reasons, I felt, because it gave me a little
change and diversity. Because, law school does tend to be a little bit tedious at
times. Plus it gave us some extra income. That was a good experience and I
enjoyed that.

MG:

Have you enjoyed teaching when you've done it?

JW:

Oh, absolutely. It's very rewarding, as you know.

MG:

And you graduated in 1964.

JW:

Right.

MG:

And you have a house in Berkeley and a child and a motor car.

JW:

Life was good. (chuckles)

MG:

And then what happened?

JW:

Well, I looked around at different law firms and different situations. I considered
employment in several other states, actually. I looked in Colorado, primarily in the
Denver area. I looked in Arizona, primarily in Phoenix and Tucson. And of course

Jim Woodward

15

in California, San Diego, a number of areas. I eventually decided to come back to
Fresno, so that's what we did.
MG:

Was that the tug of family, or was it just that you felt nostalgic for Fresno, or –

JW:

I think it was a combination. I'm sure my wife had a lot of input. I think it was a
combination. It could have been economics to some degree, because, again, things
were definitely more reasonable here. I don't really recall any particular reason. I
mean I know I wanted to look at as many opportunities as I could, but I finally
decided to come back and give that a shot. And my dad might have been a strong
influence just indirectly, just the fact that he was here.

MG:

You moved to Fresno in 1964?

JW:

Mm-hmm.

MG:

Did you buy a house here then?

JW:

Actually, we did. We bought a small home that was just off of Palm on East
Robinson, which is just – well, it's a little north of Shields and off of Palm Avenue.
It worked out well. Then shortly thereafter, our daughter was born here in Fresno.

MG:

In 1965?

JW:

Yes.

MG:

And her name?

JW:

Skye, S-k-y-e.

MG:

And her middle name?

JW:

Lynne, named after my wife's sister.

MG:

Did you come here to practice law on your own, or did you join a law firm?

Jim Woodward

JW:

16

I joined a law firm, a small law firm but an old firm, by the name of Rowell,
Lamberson and Thomas. Milo Rowell was very well known in Fresno for years.
His father was Chester Rowell, a physician, but Milo Rowell was an attorney,
although he didn't practice a great deal. But it was a small business firm. It worked
well as far as getting some initial experience. My objective, again I guess it was
something like the educational. I wanted to touch as many different areas as I
could to find out, the best I could, of what might be most appealing to me.
Because, when I came out of law school – and I've heard this from many others –
you really don't know because you haven't really experienced much of what you're
going to do in law school.

MG:

So the business kind of law was more congenial to you because of your MBA, with
your family background?

JW:

Exactly. So that's what we did for –

MG:

Did you work for corporations mostly to start out?

JW:

I did. I did quite a bit of estate planning work. In fact, one of my first challenges,
my first assignments, was to do the paperwork for the gift of the University House
from the McMahans to the university here. So that was rewarding. But I did quite
a bit of real estate work and transactions.

MG:

This is a little bit off the topic, but were they living there up to the point where they
gave it to the university?

JW:

Yes, to my recollection yes. Because they moved then to the coast, right across
from the lodge there at Pebble Beach, where they lived for many years.

Jim Woodward

MG:

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It was designated as the residence of the future presidents? Was that the whole
point?

JW:

Right. And it was a very favorable transaction from all sides, made all kinds of –

MG:

Is it substantially changed from –

JW:

Not really. No, not to my recollection, and we did live catty-corner back from –
that was the same block on the other corner, in Old Fig. Because they're at Holland
and Van Ness, and then Indianapolis and Wilson is just the other corner of that
block. I used to play in that backyard.

MG:

So you yourself were living –

JW:

Yeah, on East Robinson, which is just below that canal there where it crosses Palm.

MG:

How long did you stay with the law firm?

JW:

I stayed about a year and a half, as I recall, or two. I apparently got itchy to do
something else. I'm not quite sure what the specific reason – at that point. But I
did want to look around. I heard about an opportunity up at the campus again, for
the regents, for an associate general counsel. I drove up there and talked with –
Tom Cunningham was his name, who had been a former superior court judge from
Los Angeles. He was the general counsel for the regents for the University of
California system. He and I hit it off pretty well right away, but it was a very
political environment. It was just at the time that Reagan had been elected
governor, and things were hopping up there in terms of – as you mentioned earlier,
with all the disruptions, and so forth. There were only nine – I say "only" because
now there are many more – but there were just nine attorneys on the staff, and we
each had a campus assignment, as well as some other areas. I was able to do quite

Jim Woodward

18

a bit of hearing work because I was one of the few that had any exposure to the
courts or any of that type of thing. But I also was assigned to the Santa Cruz
campus as it was being built. There again it was more construction problems than
student problems. Although the first dean there, Dean McHenry from UCLA, we
hit it off fine.
MG:

I’ve skipped something. You actually moved back to the Bay Area?

JW:

We moved back to Moraga.

MG:

In 1966?

JW:

Right, exactly. I thoroughly enjoyed that experience because, as I say, for a young
attorney, I mean, things were hopping. They made us all actually officers of the
regents so that we would have access to anything – because there was a real battle
going on, which you may be familiar with, between the administration with Clark
Kerr and the regents. The regents at that time were composed of people like
Norton Simon and Katherine Hearst and Dorothy Chandler, Ed Pauley all these
people who were well known and felt very sure of themselves. And so did Clark. I
might say, Clark Kerr I was fortunate enough to know a little bit because he really
enjoyed rugby, so he would have us up there quite a bit for receptions and things.
But that got, unfortunately, pretty ugly. But I was actually in the room when all
that took place. Again, everything was – I mean, the lines were drawn in the sand.
But for a young attorney, it was a great opportunity.

MG:

Did you meet Reagan in counseling at that time?

JW:

No. I don't recall having done that. I remember Jesse Unruh very well. Again It's
just interesting to think the things that you remember, because I remember one

Jim Woodward

19

particular time when they agreed that no one would talk to the press after this
meeting. Jesse, just as he was leaving, he said, "Well, gosh, it's unfortunate, but
you know I'm going to have to go right by them to get to my car." And everybody
kind of said, "Oh, okay." I just happened to follow him out. His car was straight
down the stairs, right down in the lot. The press were down at the other end of the
hall. (chuckles) Believe me, he got to the press. But, I mean, there were just a lot
of things going on, a lot of things going on.
As I say, as a young attorney, I handled a couple of pure political lawsuits
and hearings in the Alameda courts. They were getting a lot of headlines, so as I
say, for someone young, it was pretty exciting stuff.
MG:

How long did you stay in Moraga?

JW:

Only about a year and a half or two. I would have stayed much longer, but my wife
wanted to get back to Fresno, even though she was not from Fresno. I think, you
know, we were out in Moraga, and I probably was pretty well occupied. By then,
with two small children, and so forth, I had to kind of cut it short. But it was not
because I wanted to. I was having a great time.

MG:

Did you ever consider working for the trustees of the California State University
system?

JW:

I never really had that opportunity, or one that came along, but I certainly would
have. I would have considered that. To be honest, I couldn't believe it when I went
to interview because I expected a long process, and I was, as I recall, offered the
position within ten or fifteen minutes after we started talking. And it was one of
the first things I did solely on my own in the sense of no one other than my wife

Jim Woodward

20

knew anything that I was even doing it. But it was kind of important to me in terms
of independence, I think, frankly.
MG:

So you moved back to Fresno in '68 or '69?

JW:

Mm-hmm, '68 I believe. That's when I went with Baker – then it was Gallagher,
Baker, Manock.

MG:

And it's now Baker, Manock and Jensen.

JW:

Right. It was at one point Gallagher, Baker, Manock, myself, and Wanger. And
Ollie Wanger is the federal district court –

MG:

Ken Manock is the son of the previous Manock?

JW:

No.

MG:

No, he is the original Manock. He must have been a relatively young man.

JW:

Yeah. Baker and Manock were both relatively young. What had happened, the
firm is actually approximately – well, it's a little over a hundred years old. That's
just kind of – it depends on how you measure these things, because it's obviously
not exactly the same people by any means. But that was an old firm which
included a lot of well known people, including Gilbert Jertberg, who was one of my
grandfather's closest friends and rose to the Ninth Circuit, which is the highest
jurist of anyone in this area, as you know, just one step below the Supreme Court.
He was very well politically connected with Herbert Hoover and Earl Warren and
others who were in that house that was right across from my grandparents there on
Wilson.

MG:

So you moved back to Fresno to take a job at Baker, Manock and Gallagher.

JW:

(chuckles) Yeah, and all the rest of them.

Jim Woodward

MG:

That was in '68. Where did you live then?

JW:

I have to think here a minute. We built a house; I guess is what we did. Came

21

back and rented a home and built a home. Found a lot and over a short period of
time built a home.
MG:

Where was that?

JW:

It was on Barstow just between Van Ness and Forkner.

MG:

Ok is it still standing?

JW:

Yes, and only one other owner, and also connected with the university, the soccer
coach. I had some fun with that house because I installed some stained glass
windows, which are still there after all these years, which surprises me more than
anybody else.

MG:

Were they made locally?

JW:

I made them. I had a friend whose family was in that business, and he set up a
small operation here and he let me just go in and work with these – the installation
was tougher than the rest of it; than any other part of it.

MG:

When you say "make them," you did the glass and the leading?

JW:

Yeah. He had quite a good supply of antique glass. It's a little tricky because of
various thicknesses and so forth, but we finally – and they weren't real ornate or
real complicated. They were fairly straight lines. But when you're doing eight foot
windows on each side of the fireplace, the chimney, and so forth, as well as another
one, it was a challenge, but it was fun.

MG:

What kind of business were you doing at the law firm at that stage? More
corporate law?

Jim Woodward

JW:

22

Pretty much the same, the estate planning and wills, and then the corporate and real
estate transactions. Those were the major areas. We were downtown on the Mall
in the old Security Bank building.

MG:

How long were you at that law firm?

JW:

I was there until the end of '72, pushing '73, I guess.

MG:

Four or five years?

JW:

Yeah. I think it really amounted to about five, or just over. And I got itchy again, I
guess, and started to look for things. The first opportunity I had, which I was all set
to do, was to be a liaison for Floyd Hyde, who had been a mayor here and had gone
back to Washington and was the undersecretary of model cities and – community
development I think is what they called it. He had about two-thirds of the HUD
budget, under Romney. He was under Romney.

MG:

In the Nixon administration.

JW:

Yeah, and I'm having trouble with the exact timing because it was over a period of
months. On about the third visit back – in fact, my wife was with me, we went
back to get a house and a location and all that – Romney resigned. Actually, right
when I was on the flight coming back. As we all know, that opens all kinds of
situations. So Floyd said, "You're welcome to come back, but of course I can't
guarantee what's going to happen." So I took a little different direction and instead
went with a developer. It was actually a partnership between Kaiser Aluminum
and Aetna Life, called Kaiser Aetna, which was a worldwide, by then, real estate
development firm which did all kinds of products, everything from residential to
commercial.

Jim Woodward

23

MG:

Where were they based?

JW:

They were based in Oakland because of Kaiser, and so forth. It was a partnership
was the form of their agreement. What was interesting is they eventually
determined that they were just not compatible partners because the Kaiser people
were manufacturing people and they counted the widgets at the end of each year;
and whereas, the Aetna people were used to real estate because that's how they put
a lot of their money out, you know, for investments. It was a friendly divorce, so to
speak, but it still amounted to–

MG:

You worked for them as a counsel?

JW:

I went in with the understanding that I was looking for a management opportunity.
That was the situation, and I was given the southern region, which was Southern
California, and several, Arizona, New Mexico, and so forth. But it was with the
understanding that that's what would happen. Believe it or not, on exactly the one
year anniversary of my employment, I was given the regional management position
down there. But also, which was extremely unusual, they let me keep the legal as
well. Usually, they don't like to do that because of the checks and balances.

MG:

But you were still living in Fresno, working out of Fresno?

JW:

No. We moved to Newport Beach. It was a long process because our offices were
in downtown Los Angeles, in the Coldwell Banker building there right off the
freeway in downtown Los Angeles. The then regional manager wanted to go to
Newport because that's where he lived, and it eventually happened. But all of that
took quite a while. I commuted for a long time.

Jim Woodward

MG:

24

You left the law firm in Fresno in late '72 early '73 and took a job with Kaiser
Aetna and then moved to Newport Beach?

JW:

Right.

MG:

How long were you there?

JW:

I was there until '79. That's when they determined that they were going to dissolve,
and so forth and so I thought it was time. One significant thing that happened
during that time, about '75 roughly, is when I was divorced. Although Diane and
the kids did stay down there until about '78 and moved back to Fresno, they moved
back.

MG:

So they stayed in Newport Beach, and your children were ten, twelve?

JW:

Yeah, they were still pretty young.

MG:

They were in school in Newport Beach.

JW:

Right. Actually, in Laguna Beach because that's where we lived.

MG:

You moved from Newport Beach to somewhere else then?

JW:

I stayed in Newport Beach, but the house was in Laguna Beach

MG:

And when you left – when the Kaiser Aetna thing dissolved, where did you go
then?

JW:

Well, I was offered to be the first general counsel for the Irvine Company, because
a classmate of mine from law school was with Latham and Watkins down there,
and they were doing a lot of work for them. I got the offer. The problem was, it
was right when the family was having a lot of disruption down there. Joan Smith,
one of the daughters, was really unhappy. So I waited several months for that to
sort of sort out, and it didn't. That's when I decided that I'd come back to Fresno.

Jim Woodward

25

Also, kids were here, my children were here, and I was being offered some
opportunities from former clients, and so forth. I thought it would make more
sense to come back.
MG:

Where were living and where were your children living? This was in 1979?

JW:

Yeah, '78, '79. They moved back, I believe, about a year or roughly a year before I
moved back. I moved back, I know it was somewhere around mid-'79.

MG:

And where did they live?

JW:

Here in Fresno?

MG:

Yeah.

JW:

They lived just off of West, just north of Bullard, on Calimyrna, I think. As I later
lived on Calimyrna. Yeah, Calimyrna.

MG:

And where did you live?

JW:

When I came back? I gotta think a minute. Where did I go? (chuckles)

MG:

Did you rent an apartment? Did you buy a house?

JW:

I later bought a house, not initially. I went into an apartment. I think I rented a
condo, as I recall. But eventually I did buy a house. In fact, also on Calimyrna but
a different part of it.

MG:

What did you do for work when you came back to Fresno?

JW:

When I came back – I had done quite a bit of work for First Savings and Loan, for
Carl Falk and Don Schaeffer. They asked me to come with them and do several
things, be corporate counsel, but also straighten out some of their joint ventures and
their real estate development, which had gotten – not really sideways, but they had
some – they wanted to do more, too. Because of my experience with Kaiser Aetna

Jim Woodward

26

and others in the development end of it, it seemed like a good fit. And I also was
free to do a certain amount of private practice work, which I did. Then, we quite
soon after I got back, we moved to that office out here on East Shaw, right near 6th
there where the –
MG:

Were you employed by them, or were you in private practice?

JW:

Both. I had quite a bit of flexibility and it worked out fine.

MG:

And your private practice was just you? It wasn't a partnership or anything?

JW:

Exactly. But a good part of my time was, of course, for them. I've forgotten exactly
how we set it up, but it was nice to have some freedom to do some private work.

MG:

Where was your office?

JW:

It was on East Shaw, 1515 East Shaw, which is just north of 6th on the south side
there, complex and-

MG:

So this is the early eighties. You're working partly in private practice and partly for
some people doing development and banking.

JW:

Right.

MG:

So that went on for some time?

JW:

Mm-hmm. And I think during that time was when I did a little bit of teaching here
and there, probably a variety of things. I've kind of forgotten the sequence. But
that's what happened until 1986 is when Lou Eaten over at Guaranty Savings and
Loan asked me to come over there and do somewhat the same thing I'd done for
First Savings, particularly in connection with the development projects which
they'd gotten into a few that were challenging.

MG:

This was again from your private practice rather than being employed by them?

Jim Woodward

JW:

27

In that situation it was full time. I was given several projects. Probably the most
important to me was, we were going to build a new headquarters for Guaranty, and
that also included Jesco, which was their computer services, and so forth. But they
wanted to bring everything together, so I was asked to put a team together, which
we did, right from scratch. I always thought they – that is "they," the management
and the board of Guaranty – would probably participate a little bit more, but that's
really not what happened. That was an interesting experience because we got it all
ready to go – in fact, we were eight days away from groundbreaking. The wine
glasses were etched, all set. And there was a disclosure of a real financial problem,
exposure, for them. Their chief financial officer had gotten them out of position in
some bonds, the only holder of which was the country of Japan that had more than
they did, so that kind of tells you they were a little out of balance. It just scared
management.
And to have a wonderful model – and bought the land, and it's the land that
is directly across from Woodward Park out there that has the u-shaped by trees.
We bought thirty acres from the owners out there. It was going to be quite a
project. As I say, it was all set. Three buildings to start – a five-, three-, and onestory. And then we were going to do another four-story a little later. A lot of water
play. It was going to be neat.

MG:

Was that the end of your working arrangement with them?

JW:

No. Actually, what happened is, I kept inheriting departments and was asked to
reorganize a number of things. So when this all occurred, this financial challenge,
they just decided it was time to sell, the family and the others who had the – so we

Jim Woodward

28

went into this merger mode. Originally, we thought it would be Great Western, but
it turned out to be Glendale Federal. At that point, I was asked to head all of the
Guaranty, all of the valley for them in the merger, so I became part of the Glendale
Federal executive team and had to fly down there every week for three and a half
years.
MG:

And when was that?

JW:

That would have been – oh, boy, this was more like close to '90 by then. It could
be '91, but it's either '89, '90, or '91, in that timeframe.

MG:

To go back on the personal front. You remarried in 1986?

JW:

Eighty-nine.

MG:

Eighty-nine. And where did you meet her?

JW:

Mutual friends set it all up, at the Ripe Tomato. (chuckles) We actually had met
about six years before we –

MG:

Had she lived in Fresno for a while? Was she from Fresno?

JW:

She's from Exeter originally but did go to Fresno State, was in the nursing program.
In the early eighties, she went back to school to get a Ph.D. in psychology and now
has a clinical practice–

MG:

And she's a practicing psychologist?

JW:

Mm-hmm.

MG:

What is her full name?

JW:

Those are the tough questions. (chuckles) Judith Ellen Knapp.

MG:

And she was married before?

JW:

She was married before.

Jim Woodward

29

MG:

Did they have children? Do you have stepchildren?

JW:

Two, who when I first met they were three and four years old. So, of course, I feel
I've known them – but I adopted them as soon as we were married. They've both
done very well. One's an attorney and one's at Harvard in the Ph.D. program.

MG:

So you continued working with the Guaranty arm of Glendale Federal in the
nineties?

JW:

For several years, and then – now that I think of it, that would have probably gone
from about '89 – probably that merger was concluded more like in '89, and I stayed
on for three and a half and then left. Going back and forth, and all of that, was a
little bit tiring after a while. Although, it was interesting because I was on
executive investment and all the committees, and so forth, and was part of a very
large operation. We had operations in Washington and in Florida, and so forth. So
it was a great opportunity. But it just came the time to maybe do something else.
So I made a very easy transition. I went over to what we call of counsel with
McCormick Barstow law firm, because they'd been our counsel for many years,
and it was a very easy transition.

MG:

And you worked for McCormick Barstow for how long?

JW:

Just a little over a year. They were downtown then. They were just getting ready
to move north. It was just a situation where I felt that probably I needed a little
more flexibility in that sense. But they're a great group of people. I enjoyed it.

MG:

So it was in the nineties by the time you left then?

JW:

Yes, it would have been about '93, I guess, by then.

MG:

And then what did you do?

Jim Woodward

JW:

30

Well, I was offered a situation for a short time with the Bank of Fresno. It was
going through its various stages, too. So I spent a little bit of time with them, but
not long thereafter I associated with Wild, Carter, Tipton and Oliver at that point,
which is again a mid-sized law firm. That worked fine until both Bob Carter, one
of the senior – retired, and then Bob Oliver, who is a very close friend, decided to
go on the bench, and that changed that firm quite a bit in terms of how it operated.
So I sort of took a break there for a while and did a little bit on my own. I found,
though, that I needed to get back to work, so about three years ago, I went back
with Baker, Mannock, of counsel, which is a very flexible arrangement.

MG:

They have the big office just north of Fig Garden?

JW:

Yes, right.

MG:

Do you go there every day?

JW:

Yep. I'm probably the first one in, to be honest with you. I usually am the first in
every office – I've made a lot of coffee over the years. (chuckles) I get there –

MG:

Well, also you get a parking place.

JW:

Well, that's true, too. But I like that quiet time. So it's worked out pretty well.

MG:

You haven't thought of retiring at any point?

JW:

I don't think that would be good. As I mentioned, I tried to kind of pull back a little
bit a few years ago, and it's just – I really enjoy, as you know, a lot of the non-profit
work, but there's something about being in the real game as far as, I think,
satisfaction. It's just keeping the balance that is a challenge.

MG:

Before we move on, we have just a couple of things to follow up on. Your children
Baron and Skye, did they remain in Fresno?

Jim Woodward

JW:

31

What happened there was that – it would have been – I have to think of the exact
years here. But when they were around age twelve or thirteen, so we'd have to
work back, their mother decided to go back to Tulsa because her family then had
moved back from San Diego. And it made sense in many respects. It was difficult
because, obviously, you lose a lot of the contact. So I was commuting quite a bit,
going back there for a while. But they went back to Tulsa and finished up school
there, and so forth.

MG:

Did they stay there, they moved on?

JW:

Well, my son's in San Marcos, just outside of Austin there, which he seems to
enjoy. He's primarily working computer science by contract, so forth. And my
daughter is in Stillwater, where Oklahoma State University is, and has been
involved in, of all things, law enforcement. Well, to be honest, I think what
happened, when she was in high school she was working at a restaurant and got
held up. She never said much about it, but I think it really irritated her. And she's
not very big, she's very small. I think that was her way of – and she seems to enjoy
it completely and has done very well.

MG:

Are they married?

JW:

My son is not, and Skye was but isn't at the moment.

MG:

One last thing about you in terms of Fresno. You've been in Fresno now
continuously for quite a number of years. Have you lived in the same house all that
time, since you were married the second time?

JW:

No. When we were married in 1989, we moved into a home on Van Ness
Boulevard just south of Bullard, with quite a bit of space. We all agreed that we

Jim Woodward

32

probably needed a lot of space, both having – because I'd been single sixteen years
at that point. And two boys that were in high school, and so forth. So we needed
some space. That worked out very well. But then in 1994, when the older of the
two boys went off to Berkeley and Mark, the younger one, only had a year or so to
go, we looked around and we scaled down considerably and bought a house out on
Fallbrook near the San Joaquin Country Club. That's worked out pretty well.
MG:

Okay. Very good. I think we've covered the timeline of your life and work, and so
on.

JW:

I know it raises questions whether I can keep a job or not. I'm still trying to figure
out what I'm going to do when I grow up, so that's okay. (chuckles)

MG:

I'd like to talk about community involvement in the first instance, and specifically
involvement with Fresno State. Could you tell me which areas of the community
you've been particularly interested in?

JW:

When I came back to Fresno out of law school, for whatever reasons, and I suppose
it had to be largely an influence of my dad, who had been very involved in a
number of things, and I don't know whether it was from a competitive standpoint,
or whatever, but I found myself immediately involved in several projects. The first
one, actually, was the old theater group that, when it existed, was out on Butler, out
on the other side of town.

MG:

What was it called?

JW:

That’s what I was trying to think, exactly what it was called. I believe at one point
Gordon Godey was kind of the director out there, before he had the other theater,
and so forth. I know we got involved in a project to refurbish the Memorial

Jim Woodward

33

Auditorium, and James Hallowell and myself and Dick Hodge took that on. I was
kind of reflecting the other day when I heard – well, it's been a few months – but
when I heard they were going to have to redo that auditorium again at the moment.
So I figured if it'd been around long enough where they're redoing what you had
done, it's probably been around a while. (chuckles) But it was a successful project,
I think, and it was one of the first things that I got involved in.
That and the – what was known then as the Art Center, which is now the
Fresno Art Museum, but the one out in Radio Park. My dad had been very
involved in that, in locating that. I know I became president of that in '68, I guess
when I came back, just after I came back in '68 or '69. So those were two particular
things that I was involved with.
At that time also, what was going on was the city and county began
requiring the cultural groups to get together. Rather than having all these appeals
every year for the budgets, they required that we get together. And Carnie Hodge,
who was involved with the Philharmonic for years – and they were the strongest
cultural arts group at that time by far. They were considerably ahead of any of the
other groups, the opera or the Art Center and everything. For one reason or
another, I always ended up with having to make the pitch, but it was Carnie Hodge
and the Philharmonic who had all the clout. So I mean, really. But we did that,
and as a result of that we formed a Cultural Arts Committee for the Chamber,
which no longer exists, unfortunately. It was, I think, one of the first attempts, at
least where I was involved, of trying to coordinate the cultural arts group a little
more.

Jim Woodward

34

MG:

Are you saying the city and county insisted you do this?

JW:

Absolutely. They wouldn't even hear you. They just got tired, I think, of all those
appeals.

MG:

What about your involvement with Fresno State? I know that you were a founding
member the, of what is now the Friends of the Madden Library and you've been a
Madden Library associate.

JW:

Right. Again, I can't recall the exact year, but I remember when a group got
together – well, it's a little bit like what we did for Channel 18. I remember being
on that Friends group when it first started. But I know a group of us – Madeline
Davidson and others, Carol Rotter and – I can't remember all the individuals, but it
was a good group. It came together quite quickly and we were able to then attract
some – I know Bob Woodward came out for one of our receptions, and so forth.
So it was a good start.

MG:

This was after Henry Madden's time, was it?

JW:

Yes.

MG:

You knew Henry Madden?

JW:

Well, I just had a vague memory – I remember my dad talking a lot about him and
all of that, but again I don't remember the exact sequence. I remember the event
when we gave the special collections, because of the photographs probably more
than anything, but I wasn't that involved, like my dad was. Of course, I was quite
young then, at that particular time.

MG:

So the associates, I think, Mrs. Lillie Parker was the university librarian.

Jim Woodward

JW:

35

Right. I remember working with her on something, I mean, over the particular
time.

MG:

You were on the board of the association?

JW:

I don't recall that name. That's why I'm not sure of the timeframe on that. I recall
that it took several years to get the Friends kind of up and going, and then I, I think,
became less maybe, engaged at that point for a while. But I know she was –

MG:

Well, your family's gift of the Woodward Collection and special collections, that
was during Madden's time.

JW:

Yes, absolutely.

MG:

So you had that connection when the time came to found the associates.

JW:

Absolutely. Of course, it was, again, my parents and my cousins' parents that –
well, my dad, I'm sure, is the one that drove that, because they didn't even live in
the area, the O'Connor group.

MG:

You've also been involved with the university well beyond the library. You've
been on the president's board or whatever its called–

JW:

Well, going back to the – the sequence I remember, one of the first parts of
involvement was the President's Club, at that time, which was really –

MG:

Who was the president at that point?

JW:

Good question, because I remember Leon Peters better than I do – who really
spearheaded it and always kind of kept it together. I don't recall.

MG:

Was it Frederic Ness?

JW:

I knew him and others, Baxter.

Jim Woodward

MG:

36

I think it was Frederick Ness, then Norman Baxter, then an interim with Carl Falk,
and then Harold Haak.

JW:

Okay. Because I knew all of them but in kind of different ways. In fact, when Carl
– going back for a moment to those times when Fresno State experienced what
Berkeley had experienced earlier, I was asked to be a hearing officer on a couple of
situations out here. It again, wasn't very pretty. It was not a good time.

MG:

I came in 1988, and there were several faculty members had very vivid negative
memories of that time that lingered on for quite a while.

JW:

Yeah, it was – but I recall, my involvement started, other than those items that
we've mentioned, frankly, a lot with the athletics, particularly when Boyd Grant
was here, with basketball, and so forth. And football, too. Because I used to go to
all of that, you know, for a long time. Then I think kind of one thing led to another.
It kind of became a second home for me, I mean in terms of the university
involvement, and so forth. Of course, as we all know, the University of California
and Stanford don't let you go easily. (chuckles)

MG:

The misfortune of still in the same state, they can find you.

JW:

Yeah. (laughs) Well, it just – but then as your children come along, they’re going,
it brings you right back into –

MG:

And have you been involved with the Bulldog Foundation, then?

JW:

For quite some years I participated in the normal seating and scholarship programs,
and so forth. And it was only later that we kind of phased out a little bit of really
going very regularly for a lot of those events.

MG:

What about the Fresno State Foundation, and you've been a member of that board-

Jim Woodward

JW:

37

Probably fifteen years or so, or more. Bob Oliver was the one that I'm sure got me
more involved there, which I've really, really enjoyed. Now, of course, having
gone through several of the committees, as well as the board itself, the challenges
are greater, needless to say. It's also been very rewarding. Now, at the moment,
I'm chair of the Audit Committee, as well as – I went also on the Association board,
which is another auxiliary which handles the student housing and book –

MG:

Have you done any legal work for the Foundation?

JW:

Uh, no. The only legal involvement would have been in connection with the
hearing officer way back in those days. Generally, I try to separate those, whether
it's in a for-profit company or a non-profit. Funny you say that because just today I
got an e-mail trying to pull me into that role, and one has to be a little bit careful.

MG:

We at the library, the thing we're most grateful for currently to you is your heading
up our leadership board as part of our contribution to the comprehensive campaign
sort of way. Like I say, we are very grateful, but what made you decide to focus on
that? Was it the connection with the special collections?

JW:

Well, I think that's what had a lot to do with leading to it, because, as you know,
after looking at some alternatives in terms of even our own family documents, and
so forth, I got to know people like Tammy Lau and others here who were interested
in what we were doing, which led, undoubtedly, to the endowment to help add to it
and support it, which Judy and I did some years ago. Then I think it was probably
just the next natural step to try to be a real participant in this whole endeavor, not
just passively. I think we've accomplished a lot. One of the challenges, to me, was
that because of the timing of the new building, and so forth, we were out front and

Jim Woodward

38

a step ahead of the comprehensive campaign. So a lot of the issues that have to be
resolved immediately, we kind of had to – as you know, you were right there. I
think we've worked through most – now they're catching up with us. But I think it
was very fortunate that we got off early. Because, even though maybe we didn't go
quite as fast as we would have liked, in some respects, now we're in a better
position to –
MG:

I think you know this, but I think it's worth commenting on the fact that the
structure we set up, the leadership board and you’ve you know, led us in, has been
emulated in various other places on the campus. It's cited this is the way to do it,
get people involved and then create networks with their friends, and so on. So I
think it's not only been successful but it's been very well done. In the waning days
of being the dean, I'm very grateful to have worked with you and its been a great
pleasure to work with you.

JW:

Well, thank you very much. I might mention that a few years ago, I was on the
advisory board or committee for social sciences about the time they determined that
they would need development officers in each of the schools, and so forth, and at
the time I thought that's going to be quite a challenge, given all the other demands,
and so forth. But as we look at it today, it's just the beginning.

MG:

Well, are there any other areas that you need to talk about? Do you have
grandchildren yet?

JW:

We have four grandchildren. The oldest is seven.

MG:

Where do they live?

Jim Woodward

JW:

39

They're in Fresno. That changed our routine a little bit because we had been going
to the coast pretty regularly, so we kind of changed that a little bit for a while.

MG:

When they get older you can take them with you.

JW:

(chuckles) It's been great. Of course, grandmas really like to be close to the – when
they're small. Then I think some of us, the guys, are kind of waiting so we can go
fishing, when we can do some of those things. It's been fun and it's been very
rewarding. I guess I was never quite sure whether I would finally stay put here for
a while, but I'm sure glad I did. Having said that, I'm glad also I was able to get out
a little bit, because I think sometimes we get more concerned over what we don't
know than anything else. There again, I encouraged my kids to get out at least and
find out what you're not missing as much as – then if you are, then you can go back
and go that route.

MG:

I'd like to close by thanking you very much for your service to the university and to
the library in particular. As I said, it's been a great pleasure knowing you.

JW:

And likewise, and I wish you well.

MG:

Thank you.
END OF INTERVIEW

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