Water Archives · Walt Shubin interview

Title

eng Walt Shubin interview

Description

eng Former Kerman farmer and water activist. Talked about his memories of the San Joaquin River before Friant Dam and how he became a water activist.

Creator

eng Shubin, Walt

eng Holyoke, Thomas

Relation

eng Water Archive Oral Histories

Coverage

eng California State University, Fresno

Date

eng 7/16/2014

Format

eng Microsoft Word 2013 document, 26 pages

Identifier

eng SCMS_waoh_00025

extracted text

>> Thomas Holyoke: Talking to Walt Shubin today, and let's just start off
with some biographical information. Walt, where you from?
>> Walt Shubin: I'm from Kerman, and I am a life-long farmer. And my
older brother told me when I was born my mother came home from the
hospital, put me in an apple box, and took me out in the vineyard, and
picked grapes with my dad, and my brothers, and my sister. And so I guess
I was born to farming. And -- and if you've ever been in a vineyard
picking grapes it's -- it's about -- when it's 100 it's 120 in the vine
row. It's like an oven. And so I had to be a tough little guy, too. And
I'm still here. I'm going to be 84 in September, and I -- I always
thought I'd never make 40, and here I'm going on 84. And -- and I keep
telling people your age you better start taking better care of yourself
because you might live to be my age. But anyway I -- I basically grew up
you know before TV and [inaudible]. We -- we had to entertain ourselves.
And my first trip to the San Joaquin River my brother Abe hiked me on the
handlebars of his bike to Gravelly Ford, and we sat there on the bank and
watched the salmon go across the -- that shallow. And when you look at a
30, 40 pound salmon going through two or three feet of water it makes a
wake like a motorboat. And there were swarms of them, and I was telling
my brother Abe, I said, "I bet I can run across the river on the backs of
the salmon and never touch the water." And they weren’t that way
continuously, but every once in a while there'd just be swarms of them
come up the river. And it was a sight to see, and I never see that again.
And then I got into high school; I was 13 years old. And I had a woodshop
class, and the shop teacher Mr. Morehead [assumed spelling] said, "Guys,"
he said, "we're going to do some wood projects." And he said, "Everybody
for years they -- they make something for their mom, a shelf for the
corner or something, something in the kitchen, cutting boards." And he
looked at me and said, "What do you want to do?" And I said, "I want to
build a canoe." And he -- he was kind of taken aback by it. And anyway he
said -- everybody else was going to make a little knick-knack, and he
said, "Have you changed your mind?" And I said, "No, I want to" -- he
said, "You have the money to buy the wood?" And I said, "No." "Would your
dad pay for it?" And I said, "No way," he -- he believed that if you -if you didn't work you didn't -- you didn't eat. There was no time for
play. And he said, "Well, we'll work that out." So I started the canoe,
and -- and we ended up making three of them. And -- and our first -first escape was from Skaggs Bridge to Mendota Pool. And it was going to
be an overnight trip we thought. We didn't know. And my mom was against
it. The river was in high -- it was spring of the year when we had the
[inaudible] float, and she said I was going to drown. Anyway, my brother
talked her into letting me go, and we -- that was our first adventure
down the river.
>> Thomas Holyoke: And what year was that more or less?
>> Walt Shubin: Oh, that'd be '30 ->> Thomas Holyoke: Oh, why don't we just ballpark? I'm not that good at
math.
>> Walt Shubin: Anyway, I was born in 1930 and I was 13 years old, so
there we go.

>> Thomas Holyoke: Okay, so '43 then?
>> Walt Shubin: Yeah.
>> Thomas Holyoke: 1943.
>> Walt Shubin: Yeah, and anyway it was -- the river to me was -- and I
had been to Yosemite when I was just a little tyke. I remember the
neighbors got a car, and they -- we went up to Yosemite for the day and - and ended up staying overnight sleeping on the ground. And -- but we
watched the fire falls which is spectacular. And anyway, coming back to
the canoes, we -- we did that trip, and then after that we -- the fishing
was fantastic. We -- we didn't fish. We used to just horse around, and
swim, and knock each other -- try to knock each other out of each other's
canoes, and that type of thing. And -- and when the -- the -- from Yuba
Avenue all the way to Tranquility, San Joaquin, Firebaugh, that was all
under water like 25 miles wide and 100 miles long. And a lot of it was
shallow water, but it was -- it was a sight to see. It was -- it was -that flood plane was in the flyway, and ducks and geese would come in by
the -- I don't even know how to exaggerate. They would -- they would
cover the water, and we couldn't see the water. And -- and we'd -- we'd
float into them and then we'd scare them up. And -- and you couldn't see
the sky. And -- and it -- it was things like that that I -- I remember
reading about the first explorers that came into the San Joaquin Valley
and talked about the flowers, and the ducks, and the geese, and the
salmon. And -- and I witnessed that in my lifetime, and I'll never see it
again. Hopefully they'll restore the San Joaquin River all the way to the
ocean. And I -- I think the Bureau of Reclamation and the people that are
in charge have spent tens and tens of millions of dollars on -- on
restoration, and they haven't turned a shovelful of dirt. And I'm told a
lot of that money has just gone to other projects other than the
restoration of the river. And one point that I -- in fact I'm working on
an article right now for -- there was an article in the paper. This one
gentleman blasted the recreation thing said, "For five years all that
water's been going to the ocean and -- and wasted, and -- and no salmon
in return," and went on, and on, and on. And -- and actually the
restoration is only four and a half years, and out of that four and a
half years four months out of the four and a half years went to -actually got to the Merced River. And that's when the farmers started
screaming about seepage. And so they shut it off, and for four years it's
been diverted at Mendota and Sack Dam, every drop, 400 cubic feet per
second every day. And -- and all you ever heard on -- on one of our local
TV stations and -- and our politicians say, "We got to take the water
away from the fish and give it back to the farmers." Well, for four years
there was never a drop that ever got to the salmon. It all went to the
farmers. Then they finally got it shut off, and they said, "Well, we
finally got the water -- took the water away from the fish and -- and
giving it back to the farmers." Well, they were getting it all the time
anyway. But they did shut it off, and then that thing kicked in on the
exchange contractors in Firebaugh where they didn't get enough water from
the delta. And in the agreement if they didn't they had rights to the San
Joaquin River. So now they got -- instead of 400 cubic feet they got 1300
cubic feet going down the river. And it's all being diverted again. John

Sutton just did that trip to -- from Friant all the way to the Golden
Gate, and he walked for -- for three days, and on the radio he said, "I - I've been walking in the sand for three days dragging my kayak," and he
said, "I'm hoping I find water tomorrow."
>> Thomas Holyoke: Let's -- let's pursue that a little bit. This is 2014,
and -- and we don't know what people will watch this, but what was -- who
is John Sutton? What was he trying to do?
>> Walt Shubin: Well, he -- he called -- first -- he called me, and he
said -- I -- he said, "Would you help me with -- I want to do a trip from
-- from the headwaters of the San Joaquin." And I said, "That's not going
to happen." And he said, "Why not?" And I said, "Well, it's all tunnels
and lakes." I said, you know I said, "It's -- it's the hardest work -they say it's the hardest working river in the world, and it -- and it's
the most polluted." And I said, "You know that's one thing about Fresno,
we're really proud that we're number one in the dirtiest air and the
dirtiest water." And I said, "You -- you talk about anything that's
nasty, we're number one. Poverty, you name it." And you don't want to get
me started on -- I want to stick to the river as much as I can because if
we get into politics I get kind of crazy. I spent seven years in
Washington, DC, and that made me crazy because it's ->> Thomas Holyoke: We'll get to all that, too.
>> Walt Shubin: But the -- the river when -- when the water -- well, as
an example we used to -- the three or four of us that used to hang around
together, we'd go out in -- in the shallows, and sometimes salmon, or
catfish, carp, whatever we could pin down with a pitchfork we would -- we
would load them up and -- and get home. And -- and I had an old Model-A,
kind of -- kind of a junky car, but it was -- it was -- boy, having
wheels in those days was really something, 13 years old, no license, and
you had a car. And we used to -- on the West Side they had these camps
for the workers, just rows of them. They were just one-row shacks, but it
was a -- they had a little stove, and beds, and what have you -- bunk
beds. We used to go to those camps and -- and sell those fish. And you
know like for ten, 15, 20 cents apiece. And -- but a hamburger was five
cents, and getting into a movie was five cents. And -- and we'd come into
Fresno on -- on Eighth Street where all the produce and all the stuff
used to load, the trucks and everything, and they had their ramp. We'd
run up on that ramp, and park the thing, and we'd -- we'd walk to the
movie and come back. It always had a dead battery, so we had to push it,
so we'd push it off that thing, go down the ramp, and -- and away we'd
go. But it -- it was amazing -- it was a lot of money. And you know we -my folks wouldn't give me a dime because they -- my dad, he didn't
believe in having fun. And I -- I was born having fun, I guess. I just -even today in my life is -- everything is beautiful. I've lost my wife
and two sons, and -- and they're with me every second of every day. And
so that I feel pretty good about myself.
>> Thomas Holyoke: As a boy growing up in Kerman you talked about your
personal experiences with the river pre-Friant Dam. Was that typical for
a lot of people? I mean, was the -- did a lot of people enjoy the fullflowing San Joaquin River at that time?

>> Walt Shubin: Well, you know I -- I remember we -- we used to hang out
on Skaggs Bridge and dive off of Skaggs Bridge. And that was a big deal
even in grammar school. Last day of grammar school we'd get on our bikes,
and we'd go down there, and the river would be flooding like it would -like it was boiling. And the big deal was the first one there to dive off
of Skagg Bridge in that ice cold water. That -- that was a big deal, but
when -- when -- before Friant Dam the salmon were so thick that people
basically -- including the American Indians and the people in Kerman -practically lived off of salmon. And my best friend in -- in high school
he said when he was in grammar school his dad would wake him up at 2 or 3
o'clock in the morning, and -- and you were allowed to catch two salmon.
So his dad would take him so they can get four salmon. And he said, "We
had salmon until it was coming out of our ears." And everybody did; they
practically lived on it. They smoked it. They canned it. They barbecued
it. And -- and it was a food source. And -- and some friends of mine, my
neighbors used to poach and go down and spear salmon which is against the
law. And story I like to tell, Emery Cobble [assumed spelling] had had
his friends, Saul's and all of them, they -- they had a group, and they
were much older. And they were spearing salmon, and -- and they had the
one guy on the bank, and he was gutting them. And -- and game warden came
up and said -- and he said, "How are you doing?" He said, "Man," he said,
"they're getting them so fast I can't keep up." And he put that badge in
front of his face, and he said, "Call all of your buddies in." And he
called them all in, and they were all naked. And -- and he said, "I want
your names and addresses." So what they did is they gave them the
neighbor's name and the neighbor's address. And the judge at that time
you know subpoenaed them, and they all had to come to court. And they
came to court, and they didn't know what was going on. And -- and that
was -- that was a fun -- that was a fun story during the era. But it -having a boat in those days was really something. You know like everybody
has a boat now. You can go buy one. And -- and during that era, during
the '30s if you had a boat you had to make it yourself. I remember the -was the first boat, I guess, that got me hooked into this canoe thing is
every year there would be two guys come down in a wooden boat, and they
would be fishing. And they had a string of fish behind. And I thought,
"Boy." At that time I was probably nine, ten years old, and I'd think,
"Boy, if I just had a boat." And so anyway I got my canoe. But one year
when the water receded you had wildflowers, like blankets of -- I
remember the Gallagher ranch right there at Gravelly Ford. They call it
oxbow, I guess. It would come -- it would be bank -- the bank water, and
then it -- and that was the point where it was always in the channel,
too, but at Gravelly Ford and Gum Grove where it spread out and went
everywhere, Madera County and -- and everywhere. And it -- it -- when it
receded it was just flowers like you can't -- poppies, and bluebells, and
-- and daisies, and every kind of flower imaginable, just blankets of
them. And it was the most gorgeous thing you'd ever seen. And now
everything is in -- in vines and trees. They -- they -- they took a
beautiful river and destroyed it, and they made a giant canal out of it.
And they lined it with concrete for miles. I -- I -- on my first trip
years -- many years later. And I went -- this was happening in my
backyard, within five miles of where I lived. But I was -- I was hooked
up with an oil trust at that time, and I was away from home quite a bit
in Bakersfield, drilling in Bakersfield and Los Angeles. And when I --

they had a test flow, probably the first flow in 50 years or whatever,
and they were going to run this water down to see what would happen for
the restoration thing. And so we -- I called my friends, and I said,
"Listen, we're going to be the first people in the river in 50 years or
whatever." And so anyway we -- we got on the river, and -- and it was a
disaster. We -- we got down to where the -- Gravelly Ford. By then the
trees had grown into the channel. And we -- we should have gone around,
but the -- the water was going over the trees like -- like great big
ocean waves. And we -- we pulled over to the bank, and I said, "Let's go
for it. It'll be fun." Well, we got going, and we got -- everything got
dumped. We lost our paddles. We lost our cameras. We lost everything. And
we still had about eight or ten miles to go to the pickup. And we're
paddling with our hands. And when we get there we're just blistering. I
mean, we're like lobsters. And so that was my experience with -- with
that first restoration flow. But it -- I hope that it -- one thing, when
people say salmon -- see all you hear about is salmon. And going way
back, probably in the, oh, late '40s and early '50s evidently they were
already talking about restoration. And -- and I'd go to meetings, and
they'd say, "Well, we don't want any water in the river because this
salmon thing is just a fish story. There was never any salmon in the
river."
>> Thomas Holyoke: People actually said that?
>> Walt Shubin: Pardon?
>> Thomas Holyoke: People actually said that?
>> Walt Shubin: Oh, yes. In these meetings, yes. And I used to stand up
and say, "Wait a minute. What are you guys talking about?" I said -- and
I used to always tell the story over and over when I was a little kid -I said, "I -- there was so many salmon going across Gravelly Ford that I
could run across their backs and -- and never touch the water." And I was
always that S.O.B. that was at these meetings telling the truth to these
suckers that were spreading misinformation. So they got out the salmon
thing, and then they got into fish versus food. And I'd jump up and say,
"Fish is food. And it's a sustainable source of protein." And I said,
"You don't have to spray it. You don't have to fertilize it. It's -- it's
sustainable. It's a -- it's a gift." And I said, "We have farmers that
are spraying" -- I said, "We've -- we've got these geniuses with our farm
sectors that -- I call them Monsanto farmers. They -- they've been duped
into believing that you can't make a crop without spraying the bejesus
out of it, including killing every weed." And when I got into foreclosure
I -- I didn't realize that I was part of that group that was spraying
everything. Well, when they cut out all my funding to farm I let it all
go to seed, and I bowed my neck. And they filed a lawsuit against me, and
I filed a lawsuit -- a lawsuit against two banks, and the fight was on.
And -- and I didn't -- didn't have any money to do all this stuff that
everybody else was doing. And I found out that I could farm without using
all this stuff and still make a hell of a crop. And I've been doing it
ever since. And even right now on my 20 acres I haven't used anything,
insecticides, pesticides, or fertilizers, or anything basically for 20some years, and I make 410 to the acre. And there's no one that can make
that 410 to the acre with all their Monsanto fertilizers, and nitrogens,

and killing every weed. And I -- in fact I have my 20 acres rented out to
a guy, and he's -- his dad -- they're Indian, and his -- his dad said,
"Now, we've -- we've got to manicure everything, and no weeds, and
everything has to be beautiful. Otherwise people will think we're bad
farmers because we're from India." And I told Abe, I said, "You know," I
said, "We're not going to go that way. We're going to -- we're going to
let the weeds grow. And that's my cover crop." And anyway he said, "Okay,
I'll farm it your way. But don't tell anyone that I'm farming it. I don't
want anyone to know I'm a bad farmer." And I said, "Well, when people
drive by and say, "Walt’s a lousy farmer because look at those weeds."
And I'm saying they -- they think it's just -- they're horrified by it,
and to me it's beautiful. Got some wildflowers, and I've got a yard full
of quail. And I have this little [inaudible], and it's -- it's a refuge
for -- for birds and what have you. And I'm -- I've been flowering that.
I -- I plant for -- my wife and I did it for years, we planted flowers
every year, wildflower seeds. And -- and anyway I'm onto this thing with
bees now. I -- I see too many of these films here at the university
basically, right here at your theater, on -- on food, and -- and bees,
and you name it. It -- and I've -- I guess I've seen them all. And that's
-- that's why I'm kind of screwed up.
>> Thomas Holyoke: Do you -- Were you still living in Kerman when Friant
Dam went -- basically went online to start drying up the river? I mean,
do you have memories of the ->> Walt Shubin: Oh, yeah.
>> Thomas Holyoke: -- what was called the dying of the river?
>> Walt Shubin: My neighbors -- I was seven years old. They bought a '37
Chevrolet sedan. And people in those days, like I say before TV and all
that stuff, on Sunday they'd get in the car, and drive around. And -- and
where I lived there wasn't probably ten -- ten people living west of
Madera Avenue. And it was the Kennisons [assumed spelling], and Nasarovs
[assumed spelling], and -- and my family, and -- but we were scattered
all over the place. And -- and you drive around and see what the
neighbors are doing. That was -- that was kind of a deal that you did on
Sundays. And one day the neighbors came by, and they had this new '37
Chevy sedan. And they said, "We're going to go see Friant -- they're
building Friant Dam." I remember we went up in that. It was -- and there
wasn't much to it at that time. It -- I guess they were pouring the
cement in the bottom. And they had some stuff going up on the sides. But
yeah, it was -- it was -- I -- I call it greed. This is what's -- I think
that's what's wrong with our country today is -- it's like they say, 1%
of the people control more money than half the people in the nation. And
there's something wrong with this picture. And it -- I don't know. It's
just like when they dredged out the San Joaquin River -- the -- the first
time I ever heard about it my friend in -- in Firebaugh, they were
dredging the river, and they got to their property. And they -- you know
the neighbors got together, and they go their shotguns, deer rifles, and
their pickups. And they lined up, and they said, "You're not going to go
any further." And they stopped it. So from that point just north of
Firebaugh all the way to Mendota Pool and then all the way to the
Chowchilla Bypass it's still natural somewhat. And then from the bypass

they went all the way up to -- almost to the Gum Grove which would be
just below Gravelly Ford. And -- and the farmers again stopped them. And
I don't know -- still don't know -- I've heard all kinds of crazy
stories, and I'm not going to go there because I don't know that much
about them. But I -- they had a plan for -- for whatever to dredge that
river and bring water -- I don't know whether they were going to pump it
uphill like they do with all their canal systems or something because
there was something going on for the reason, but they -- they didn't make
it wide enough because on -- on one occasion or two occasions under flood
years, and that would be that one year it was going across Whitesbridge
Avenue like it did when I was a kid. And Producers Dairy had dozers
making banks to protect the -- the thing. But Whitesbridge Highway -- why
it was called Whites Bridge because they had all these bridges because
where the main channel of the river, when it flooded it still had all
these -- I call them sloughs. They were like spider webs. They were
everywhere, and -- and they built a bridge over every one of them. That's
why they call it Whitesbridge. And they were wooden, and they -- they
were painted white. Another story, there -- there was the Herman House
Ranch, it was a ranch from Yuba Avenue to -- clear to the [inaudible]
slough, or what do you call it? I call it the slough, and it's -- have
another name for it. It's a bypass from -- from Tulare Lake when it used
to overflow. Well, anyway it -- there's another friend of mine. The
Herman House Ranch was -- it was a huge ranch from the river to
Whitesbridge and -- and 25 miles long. And -- and times were tough during
the depression. And he and his friend would go down in a boat, and they'd
kill a cow and quarter it, and put it in the boat. And they'd go up one
of these sloughs, and park underneath the bridge. The wife would come by,
and they'd throw it in the car. And they'd come upstream, and they had
setlines for salmon. They'd hook a line on a limb and have a spinner on
the end, and -- and that limb would work back and forth like someone with
a fishing pole. And -- and they'd come by and -- and take the salmon off
all these setlines rather than spear them. And that was their way of
income and survival, I guess you'd call it. I -- I grew up in a time that
was tough, and I -- I remember I did a talk on -- in Sacramento. And the
person ahead of me was -- they had a PowerPoint thing on -- on the farm
workers of today and how they lived. And when he got done he said, "Walt,
you're next, but I have a question," he said, "you look old enough that
you probably remember the last depression." I said, "Yeah, I grew up in
it." And he said, "What was it like?" And I said, "My folks were from
Russia, and they -- they had never been to school." And I said, "They
were fruit tramps like the -- our -- our wetbacks, Mexican wetbacks." And
I said, "They traveled in groups, I guess for protection or whatever."
And I said, "We lived in the dirt. We didn't even have tents." And I
said, "My folks picked grapes in -- in Kerman and potatoes in Shafter,
prunes in San Jose, peaches in Sacramento, and came back to Kerman." And
he said, "Well, what was it like?" And I said, "You know people today
take vacations." And I said, "Being just a little guy you know five years
old, whatever," I said, "it was like vacation every day because as -- as
we traveled in groups with the families everybody had kids. I got to play
every day with all the rest of the kids." I said, "It was fun." I said,
"Well, I didn't know we were poor. So that's -- it was tough, but
everybody seemed -- seemed happy."

>> Thomas Holyoke: So at some point you -- you take over farming, I
guess, your -- your parents farm? Or you become -- you -- you were a
farmer for quite some time?
>> Walt Shubin: Yeah.
>> Thomas Holyoke: What -- what crops did you grow?
>> Walt Shubin: In 1935 my dad was picking grapes in this one vineyard,
and a banker came by and -- and tried to sell him the 20 acres that he
was picking grapes on. The bank had repossessed it, and they -- my dad
didn't understand what he was talking about, so he got an interpreter,
came back and said, "We want you to buy this property." And my dad said,
"I don't have any money." And he said, "There's nothing down. We just
want you to move into the house and take care of it. You can make
payments any way you want." And what the -- let me think. I think he
bought the whole ranch for $500.
>> Thomas Holyoke: Wow.
>> Walt Shubin: Yeah, and that's -- that's how he started farming. And
through the years, oh, we -- as a family we were like every other family.
We -- we didn't have any money, but we worked hard, and we had our
gardens, and we raised our own chickens, and geese, and lambs. And we -we were self-sustained basically. And that's basically what I'm doing
today. I -- I have my solar, and I have my one-row garden. And I -- my -I don't have any car payment, so I'm -- I'm pretty much other than gas to
get up the mountains and stay up there most of the time I'm pretty much
almost self-sustained. And I could about -- you now with the water thing
I've been preaching about water. And I -- I have made it busy, and talks
with school kids, and you name it. People invite me to come up, and
they'll pay my way and put me up. And I'm there, and I tell this story. I
said, "No one realizes how important water is." I said, "Tell the -- you
turn -- turn on your faucet, and there isn't any water." And -- or -- or
the story is no one knows the value of the water until the well goes dry.
And so I -- it -- and it's happening. In fact a couple of weeks ago I -I got up one morning, turned on the faucet; there was no water. I was
like, "Jesus!" I have a bad heart, bad lungs. It's a wonder it didn't
kill me. I went out and checked the power and everything. So I called the
pump people. They came out, and the mud daubers got into the control that
kicks the pump on and off. And -- and he measured my well, and -- and he
said I'll make it through the year. And I said, "Well, I guess I'd better
get a rig in -- in case I run dry this year." And he said, "You're not
going to get a rig for six to nine months." So I'm on a waiting list
because if I make it through the year I'll -- I'll have -- if we have
another drought year -- and he said there's wells going dry like you
can't believe. He said -- in fact, he just came from a lady's house;
she's watering her lawn. She's 92 years old, and -- and she said, "Look,
my sprinklers are barely going." And he tested her well, and measured it,
and everything. And he said, "Ma'am, you're out of water, and you don't
have -- you can't leave and lower your pump." And she said, "But I want
to -- I want my green lawn." And he said, "Well, you have to quit
watering that lawn so you have something to drink." And he said, "How
often do you water your lawn?" She said, "Twice a day." She said, "I like

my lawn." So here you go. He said, "Probably in a few days -- right now
FID has -- we have one month or month and a half of water. And when they
shut that water off and everybody turns on their pumps there's going to
be wells go dry like you can't believe." It's going to be a disaster, and
I've always said -- in fact, Eli [inaudible] died the other day, and he,
and [inaudible], and Lloyd Carter, and myself, and -- and anyway there's
-- there's a group of us old guys. And I'm the youngest one -- no, Lloyd
and I are the youngest ones in the bunch. And -- and they're dying off on
us. And -- and he -- there was an article he made about water the other
day. And I've been saying water is more important than oil or all of our
luxuries. We could do with any of them, our cars, but we can't live
without water. And -- and we're headed that way. We're headed that way.
It's sad, but -- and I -- being an environmentalist and -- and a farmer,
I -- I guess that's why they -- they call me all the time because how can
I be an environmentalist and a farmer at the same time?
>> Thomas Holyoke: Well, how did that -- how did that happen? I mean, how
does a farmer become an environmentalist? It doesn't seem to be what
normally happens.
>> Walt Shubin: Well, when -- when they tried to foreclose on me, and
that -- and that lawsuit lasted for seven years. And that's what took me
to Washington, DC. And ->> Thomas Holyoke: What -- what was the lawsuit? Explain that again. What
was the lawsuit?
>> Walt Shubin: Oh, they -- they foreclosed on me.
>> Thomas Holyoke: Okay, the bank did?
>> Walt Shubin: Yeah, and I -- I made my payment. I was short $2000. And
-- but I had 100 ton of raisins sitting at the packers, and all I had to
do was sell them and give them the $2000. But they said, "No, we're going
to foreclose on you." And they -- I thought at first they were kidding.
Then we -- I'm going to go around in circles. But anyway, I ended up in
Washington, DC because of the lawsuit. And -- and they said, "Well, you
have to -- if you're going to -- you're either going to have to walk
away, and start -- or start over, or fight them." And I said, "You know
I'm going to fight them." So I filed the two lawsuits against the two
banks, and -- and the fight was on. And then I find out that I'm paying
10% interest to these -- to these two banks for years, and -- and I've
got some pretty good equities. And my neighbors are paying like 6%. And I
questioned them. I said, "What the heck's going on?" They said, "You
never said anything, so we've been -- that's why we've -- we've been
charging 10% and getting away with it." And I said, "Okay, now I know
neighbors that haven't made a payment for three years, and you haven't
foreclosed on them." And I said, "I'm -- I've got enough money to make
that payment as soon as I sell -- and -- and yet you're foreclosing on
me." And they said, "Well, the bank is in a little bit of trouble, and
we're foreclosing on you because you have equity, and that would make our
portfolio look good. But the guys that are -- haven't made their payments
for three years, they're" -- what do they call that? -- under water or
whatever. There's no percentage in foreclosing on them because can't --

there's no money in it for them. I get to Washington, DC. It was kind of
interesting; I -- I got in an elevator, and the guy said, "You can't use
this elevator." And I said, "What do you mean I can't use it?" He said,
"It's for senators and congressmen only." And he said, "I don't recognize
you as being part of the group." And I said, "I'm a taxpayer, and no
one's using it. Take me up to the third floor." And about that time -- I
forget the senator's name from Tennessee, he gets in, and he says, "Third
floor." And -- and he says, "Senator, this gentleman won't get out
because he says he's a taxpayer." And make a long story short he said,
"Take us up to the third floor." And we get up there, and he said, "What
are you doing here?" So I told him my story. And as I'm telling him my
story he's -- every time he sees a senator or congressman come by. All of
a sudden there's a dozen of them, and then we go to a room, and he wants
me to tell the story -- and -- of why I'm here, and -- and the
foreclosure, and the whole thing. And -- and he said, "Walter," he said,
"you're probably not aware of it, but," he said, "the -- the farm credit
system is in really bad trouble. We're about to shut them down." And he
said, "They're under water like you can't believe." He -- he said, "I
hope you haven't made your land payment." I said, "I've made all of it
except $2000." And he said, "That's too bad because," he said, "if we
shut them down we're going to call in all the -- all the loans." And he
said, "If people can't pay it," he said, "we -- we're going to take their
land." And he said, "When are you going home?" I said, "I have -- I have
to be home because I have a meeting with the banks." And he -- and with
some real foul language he -- he told me to tell them to go screw
themselves and whatever. So I get home, and I tell them this. And -- and
they laughed at me, and they said, "You know Shubin, you're getting
crazier by the day, and starting out with the lawsuit." And I said, "I'm
telling you this is what they told me in Washington, DC, to tell you go
screw yourselves, and some choices words, and whatever." And they laughed
it off. And about three days later Fresno Bee big bold, black letters,
front page, “Farm Credit System Going Broke.” And they called me and
said, "How did you know that?" But anyway it's -- it's a -- it was a
crazy time for me because I -- I was involved in so -- and then I hooked
up with American Ag. And then I -- we started American Ag in California.
And I became president of American Ag Movement.
>> Thomas Holyoke: Just gonna interrupt for a second, but what -- what
period of time are we in right now?
>> Walt Shubin: In the '80s.
>> Thomas Holyoke: In the '80s, okay.
>> Walt Shubin: Yeah, and we're getting away from the river again. I hate
that.
>> Thomas Holyoke: That's okay. We'll get back to it.
>> Walt Shubin: But coming -- we'll get back to that later. But anyway,
it's -- water to me is -- like I say, we could -- we could do without our
cars, and our homes, and we could do -- we could -- all of our luxuries,
but we can't live without water. And I mentioned earlier, I said you know
one thing that Fresno's great for, we're -- we've got the most polluted

water; we've got the most polluted air; we've got the most polluted
river. Everything we're number one in is -- is really -- we're next to
Appalachia in -- in poverty. We're number one in poverty. We're number
one in everything that's bad. And -- and it's not going to get fixed in
Washington, DC. I -- I went to Washington, DC because they said you could
fix it in Washington, DC; you can't fix it here locally. When I get to
Washington, DC I find out that Washington, DC is worse than it is
locally. Pardon me.
>> Thomas Holyoke: Okay, and that could be interesting to hear any of the
stories you have to tell about what you found in Washington, DC.
>> Walt Shubin: I could write a -- in fact, I -- a member with the
[inaudible] Bank -- you know they're one of the biggest banks in the
world I've been told -- invited me to their house. I guess they have
houses all over the world, but they have a -- they have a house that's a
block or two behind the Supreme Court. And they invited me to their house
for supper. And I -- I said, "What's it all about?" And they said, "We've
been following you, and you're kind of an interesting person. We'd like
to have you over." And we talked all night long until about 4 o'clock in
the morning. And I said -- I -- I said, "Your time is up. And I -- I have
to shut this thing down." And they said, "You know we have more money
than anyone in the -- probably anyone in the world." And he said, "In
listening to you and all your escapades," he said, "you've done more than
we have. You should write a book." And I've been -- in legal pads I've -I'm a note-taker. And I've got boxes full -- full of -- I have enough to
do a book. And I -- I might do it one of these days. But it -Washington, DC -- oh, one story I thought was really priceless. I stayed
at the Capitol Hill Inn for -- for seven years off and on. And this -it's behind the Library of Congress and the Supreme Court. And I could
get up in the morning and -- and walk -- walk over to the Supreme Court
and have breakfast. And -- and the office that I worked out of was right
across the street from the Supreme Court. And every morning you ->> Thomas Holyoke: Was this with the New American Ag Movement?
>> Walt Shubin: American Ag Movement.
>> Thomas Holyoke: Okay.
>> Walt Shubin: Yeah, so every morning you go down, they have coffee and
donuts, and -- and a free newspaper. And the lobby's full of all these
people that are -- I thought were with all the corporate people in -they all had cards. And -- and the women and the men are all dressed to
the teeth you know like they came out of fashion magazines. And -- and
this one morning I come down there's no one in the lobby, and I walk up
to the desk, and I said, "What's going on?" She handed me the newspaper.
They raided the Capitol Hill Inn, all -- all the prostitutes. And I was
thinking, "Now I know why those senators and congressmen all have this
big couch in their office." And I used to get -- zing them about that.
But when I -- I walked over and had breakfast, and got over to the
office, and they said, "Hey, Shubin, you've been there off and on for
seven years and you didn't know you we’re having coffee with prostitutes
every morning?" And they said, "Well, what is it with you?" And I said,

"Listen, give me a break. I'm from Kerman." [Laughter] That was my
excuse.
>> Thomas Holyoke: So can we ->> Walt Shubin: But like I said I got a -- I got a box full of card from
all these important people which were all prostitutes.
>> Thomas Holyoke: So what kind of stuff were you doing with the -- with
the New American Ag Movement in Washington?
>> Walt Shubin: Well, we were trying to -- we -- we call it parity. At
one time during the Roosevelt era after the -- during the depression and
everything he came up with this thing. It was called parity. And farmers
were having a real tough time -- the whole country was having a tough
time, and so he came up with this thing that when the farmers had a
commodity for sale, and it -- it was below what it cost to -- to produce
it there was a -- a thing that -- and it -- and it tied into -- it -- the
trucks, or fertilizer, anything that you purchased had to be on par with
the rest of the economy. And -- and it's -- it's a real -- people say,
"Don't use the word parity because we don't know what you're talking
about." But what it amounted to at that time when they had this parity
program farmers started making money, and in fact here at the university
a couple of years ago there was -- there were some speakers. And -- and a
guy said, "Our system is all haywire." And -- and I said, "You know we
need to go" -- I stood up, and I said, "I can answer your question." I
said, "You know when you say it's all haywire, why don't we go back to
the parity system during the Roosevelt era where the farmers are all on
par with the rest of our economy." And I said, "Farmers in the first time
in history had -- they -- they had cars, and pickups, and they could buy
trucks. And -- and they were -- they could feed their families. And they
were -- they were making money." And he said, "Well, if it was working so
good what happened to it?" And I said, "The banks killed it because when
-- when the farmers are on the treadmill borrowing money every year the
banks are making money like gangsters. And -- and when they start making
money they quit borrowing. And the banks couldn't handle it, so they
killed the -- killed the parity bill." And that's what we were fighting
for is we wanted to bring it back. And it -- I -- I hooked up somehow
with Willie Nelson. He had -- he had the FarmAid. And I was asked if I
would be the coordinator for Nevada and California. And I said, "I don't
know what you guys are talking about." Anyway, make a long story short I
said, "Sure, I'll do it." So we ended up that he had one person in each
state throughout the United States that went around and had meetings. And
-- and the farmers could pick their own people --depending on how many
people were in the room they could pick their own people to go to St.
Louis, Missouri. It was going to be the biggest gathering of farmers in
the history of our country, and it was. And we gathered up all these
people from -- from all over the United States, ended up in St. Louis,
Missouri. And when I got there they ran out of money. And -- for all the
rooms and -- he paid for all the airline tickets, the rooms, meals, and
everything for the whole time we were there.
>> Thomas Holyoke: Willie Nelson did?

>> Walt Shubin: Willie Nelson did. And I get to the desk, and they said,
"You know we -- we just ran out of money." So I called -- what's his
name? I can't remember his name now. But anyway, he said, "Walt, don't
worry about it. I'm taking care of it." He said, "It's not just your
hotel," he said, "All the other hotels are -- are saying the same thing."
So anyway they had a quick meeting, and -- and he said, "Just hold on a
minute." He said, "In about 15 minutes we'll -- it'll be taken care of."
And sure as heck, they said, "Okay, all -- all your people register." And
-- and I said, "What -- what's going on?" He said, "Willie Nelson talked
them into he's going to have a concert tomorrow night." And I said, "In
less than 24 hours he's going to do a concert and pay for this whole
thing?" And he said, "Well, that's what he's hoping." Anyway they -- they
-- I don't know how they did it, on the radio or however they did it, but
they had that concert the next night, packed it to the rafters, and paid
for everything. And so anyway we hammered out a bill that went to
Washington, DC. It was called the Right to Private -- Right to Private
Action, I believe. And -- and that's another whole story. We -- we had -we -- we got defeated by two votes, I believe. So we ran it through the
second time. We made some adjustments, and it was probably about 20 pages
long. And when they got through with it it was like a Bible. But -- not a
Bible but, I mean, several inches thick. And -- and we got it passed. And
the only thing is Rodino [assumed spelling] put a paragraph in there that
killed the whole bill. It was -- it was worthless on all the paper that
it was written on because what -- what it did is it gave us a right to
sue the banks. That's where that bell rang in my head, what is this? Give
us the right to -- I'm suing the banks, for Christ's sakes. And then the
bill was no good. And then this friend of mine said, "Walt, you have to
meet this guy that's -- he doles out the money to the Farm Care system."
So somehow he hooks up this -- makes -- hooks up this meeting, and I -- I
meet this guy. And the guy says, "How in the hell did you get into my
office?" And I said, "A friend of mine said he's going to take care of
it, and make arrangements, and everything." He said, "Who -- who is this
person?" And I told him. He said, "Is that S.O.B. still alive?" And I
said, "Yeah, he's still alive." He said, "I thought by now someone would
have just killed him." But anyway he said -- he said, "I've been
following you for seven years." And he said, "You kick their butts every
inch of the way." And he said, "We've tried to foreclose on you couple of
times on -- on the courthouse steps, seems like every month." And he
said, "You have kicked our butts for seven years. How in the world do you
guys pull it off?" And I said, "You know we talked about it quite a bit,"
and I said, "My attorneys just tell me, "You know, Walt, the only reason
you're winning is because the government attorneys are so stupid." He -he rolled back in his chair, and he said, "Geez, I -- sounds like I
better clean house and get some new attorneys." So anyway, I come home
and -- and I talked to my attorney. And he said, "Yeah," he said, "Walt"
-- it's a whole story. Judge Edgar Thompson was the federal judge at that
time. And we're not going to go through the whole scenario because it's - you could write a book on it, but at that time, you see, they had a
Chapter 7, a Chapter 11, and they came up with a Chapter 12. And it had
passed the house, the senate, but it was waiting -- awaiting the
president's signature which was -- they said it would probably be about
30 days. And I said -- he said, "Walt, I'm going to have to" -- Edgar
Thompson said, "Walt, I'm going to have to pull the plug on you." He
said, "I can't -- I can't handle this anymore. You're -- you're done."

And I said, "Well, how about this Chapter 12?" And he said, "The
president hasn't signed it yet." And I said, "Well, would you give me
enough time for wait for him to sign it?" He said, "I can't." He said,
"You've been -- been a couple of years you," he said, "You've been
fighting." And he said, "There's no hope." And so he said, "I'll tell you
what," he said, "If you could find one -- one person that has -- that
they have accepted this Chapter -- this new Chapter 12," he said, "I'll
stay with you." So Tony [inaudible] had an office in Kerman at that time,
so I went straight from Fresno into the office, and called Tony, and
talked to Tony. And I said, "If you could find one person that has -- the
banks have approved this I get to hang on a little bit longer." And he
said, "I'll -- I'll see what I can do." And so a couple of days goes by
and that day, I said, "I have to have it by this certain date. I'm got to
have it. I've to go before the judge again." And I get a call and he
says, "Come by the office. We got a whole list. There's over a hundred of
them." And when we had the last meeting I had with the judge, he asked
all the attorneys for the Federal Land Bank and production credit
association, "Do you know of any of them that have been accepted?" They
all said no. There was over a hundred of them that had been accepted and
they were all by the farm credit system and the production credit
association. And the judge looked at that and he said, "I got to take a
recess." And I don't know what he did but he came back and he just -- he
said, "You know, every one of you lied to me," because he said, "Here it
is and you people have to be aware of it because they're all from your
banks." And he said, "You guys pull this off of me one more time," he
said, "You're going to get your contempt of court and you're all going to
jail." So anyway, that was part of my thing which kept the fight going
and -- it was quite an experience.
>> Thomas Holyoke: So at some point, I guess you end this, and you, I
guess, really are into [inaudible] activism here in the valley.
>> Walt Shubin: As I say, I've done work. I've been doing this for 65
years. My first meeting, what got me started. We had a congressman, Sisk
was our congressman.
>> Thomas Holyoke: Bernie Sisk, yeah.
>> Walt Shubin: Bernie Sisk. Okay, he had -- it was in the Old Grange
Hall. It's all torn down now. It was an old wood building across from
Reno's Bar. But anyway, I think everybody in town showed up. And there
was probably 500 people in Kerman at that time, 1950, I guess or '49 or
'50. It could have been '48, '49, '50 somewhere in there. And I go to the
meeting and he has a geologist there. And have you ever been around
geologists and seen their curves and faults -- and its art. Because I
work for an oil [inaudible] all my life so I've seen those maps coming
out of my ears. Well, that was the first one I had ever seen. He had all
the green lines, blue lines and red lines and he said, he stood up and he
had it on hanging on the wall and he said, "Drawing up the river is not
going to affect any of you farmers." And Jake [Inaudible] used to drink a
little bit and he'd been across the street and got up his nerve, I guess,
and when he started talking about his curves and lines and faults and
it's not going to affect our water at all, Jake stands up and just lights
into him with all kinds of profanity and everybody was going, "Shush,

shush, shush." And he said, "What the heck is all this shushing about?"
And he said, "Gertha Thomas is here." There's only one lady in the room
and he looks over and he says, "Hi, Gertha." And she smiles and waves
back and he said, "I know your husband real well and every other word is
an F word." So he said, "I know you've heard all this language before."
And she said, "Yes, I have. Go ahead." So he lights into this geologist
and Bernie and said, "If it doesn't affect where they dry the river up.
If it doesn't affect our water, how come my well went dry?" And the
geologist jumped in and said, "Oh, that's probably a coincidence." And he
said, "You're so full of," and went on and on and on and just cussed him
from one end to the other and both of them. He said, "Bernie, you have a
lot of balls bringing this guy in here and blah, blah, blah." And he
said, well, Bernie says, "Well, you know. Maybe he's right. Maybe it was
coincidence." He said, "Well, a couple of years later, you dried it up
another couple of miles," and he said, "My other well went dry. Is that a
coincidence?" And anyway, that was my first meeting and I'm thinking, "If
one person stands up and fights, he's a majority. And I've learned that
in going cross country and going all over the United States in different
meetings. I've heard people talk about going cross country to make a
speech and one person shows up. He said, "We got more done with that one
person than we did with 500 people." So he said, "As long as there's one
person fighting, there's a chance. But when that person quits fighting,
the party's over. And the last person turns off the lights." [Laughter].
So it's -- I felt like I was like the Lone Ranger when I started fighting
in going to meetings and now, I think with this drought, it's a wake-up
time and I know that there's tons and tons of people that are waking up
and they're starting to organize and with this water, air -- everything
is happening and Fresno’s economy's not good. We're -- you know, here a
while back, they had a spill at one river in Cole County, I believe. They
couldn't drink the water.
>> Thomas Holyoke: [Inaudible] in West Virginia?
>> Walt Shubin: Yeah. They didn't do anything do anything to him. But if
some foreign country, these terrorists came over and did that, we'd bomb
the bejesus out of that country that those people were from. But our
people do it, it's okay. And it's like, what's happening here? When you
breathe the air, and I'm a classic example of bad air because I almost,
I've ended up in the hospital twice now because I couldn't breathe. And
now I'm staying up in the mountains because yeah, that's what's keeping
me alive. We--My neighbors are all spraying constantly. So you have
insecticides, pesticides that are going up in the trees and the vines and
are settling on our soil. When the wind blows, we're breathing all these
insecticides, pesticides and our air is contaminated. Our water is
contaminated. The water is contaminated because of the chemicals that the
farmers are using every day. And you know, they say I'm an environmental
-- a nutcase and I'm saying I can't stay here in the valley. I'll say it
today. They're environmental terrorists because they're polluting our air
and our water and I'm saying Monsanto, they say you love neighbor
[Inaudible] has all these chemicals but we have Monsanto. And we've got
all the -- I mean these chemical companies have got these farmers duped
into believing that you can't make a crop without using all their stuff.
And I'm producing all of them and I'm not using any of it. What does that
tell you? I mean, it's just -- it's craziness and I don't know where I'm

going with this but I know one thing. I've had a lot of exposure all over
the United States. Willy Nelson was the greatest thing that ever -- the
thing that I enjoyed most of all. And he's the neatest guy I've ever met
in my life. And I forget what his name is, Burt Reynolds, made a movie
with him. He said, "Damn, if I met Willy Nelson years ago," he said, "I
would have married him. I wouldn't have to go through all those
divorces." [Laughter] He said, "He's the neatest guy I've ever met in my
life." And he said, "He's a hell of a cook, too." [Laughter] But it's
just like the one time we were on TV and they were questioning Willy
about something and he turns to me, he said, "Walt," he said, "Take
over." He said, "You know more about it than I do." And he's staying
behind me and anyway, he's just a hell of a guy. And yeah, he doesn't
hide his smoking his marijuana. That's another thing. What is it with our
supervisors on this marijuana thing in Fresno? Jesus! He should be put in
jail. And I mentioned earlier about this [inaudible] that they want to
build that new town or whatever. And I've testified in reviving the
parkway and Women League of Voters, we've all testified about why it
shouldn't happen. And it's as if they're brain dead or they got ear plugs
on or something. Their minds are made up. Don't confuse me with any
facts. When we get through, they vote us down every time. But we've won
this last go around so we've got another reprieve. It seems like our
developers run our city and our -- supervisors, everybody, lock, stock
and barrel. Remember Mark [Inaudible] who wrote the book -[ Inaudible Speaker ]
Yeah and he talks about the guy that got bought off with the blue suit.
And then they go to court and he shows up in his damn fine blue suit
[laughter]. So anyway, it's sad but it's just -- politics is so bad. I
think they're all criminals basically. I hate to say that but they're all
on the take. I got to tell you, and I'm not going to give you any names.
They had a press conference up at Fran [Inaudible] way back over this
water issue in the restoration. And someone called me, "Sir, are you
going to the thing?" And I said, "I didn't know anything about it." And
he said, "Well, it's an invite only. But they have guards every 50 feet
and they have people at the gate because it's a terrorist threat of the
dam. Someone's going to blow up the dam and all that crap they have
people." It can be tough getting in there but sir, you're there for the
press conference and see what happens. I wheel in there and I said, "I'm
here for the press conferences." "Go ahead." I'm driving up there and
there's guards all over the place and I get up there and park my car and
I walk in. And they all looked at me and they said, "How in the heck did
you get in here?" And I said, "I was invited." "Oh, who invited you?" And
I said, "Never mind. I'm here." So they tolerated me but one of the
supervisors got up and did a talk. And he comes down and he's standing up
to me and he pokes me. He said, "What do you think of my speech?" And I
said, "Who wrote it for you?" And he said, "I did." I said, "Come on." I
said, "You're not that smart." And he said, "How dare you talk to me? Do
you know I'm blah, blah, blah and so on and so on?" And I said, "Yeah, I
know who you are." So anyway, I said, "You know, you're like the rest of
the supervisors and everybody else in Fresno." And I said, "Not all of
them." And I said, "A lot of them are all on the take," and I said,
"That’s what makes a difference in how the votes go and everything is how
much money they get underneath the table." He said, "I've never taken a

dime." And I said, "You're so full of it, you -- you know." I said,
"Standing next to you," I said, "You're starting to smell." And he said,
"Oh, I'm insulted by your telling me that I'm on the take." Well, it
wasn't a week later, they got him on that deal. Remember, he couldn't
build a swimming pool with any developers except it was his company. And
then he got a Cadillac from one of the casinos and here he's telling me,
"I've never taken any money from anybody." [Laughter] So anyway, it's -you know, if you want to know something, you're not going to get it in
the newspaper or the media. You have to search for it. Dig for it. And I
guess I'm a digger because I guess I read too much and they say I need to
get my -- turn my computer on and get into because the whole world's
going and passing me by. And I said, "You know, I'm not going to turn
that sucker on." And they said, "Why not?" And I said, "Well," I said,
"I'm involved in a lot of things with American Ag Movement and I said,
"One of the last ones that we did was shut down the Port of Los Angeles,
San Pedro and Long Beach." And I said, "We paralyzed the town for a day
with tractors and that's another story." It took two years' planning to
get it done but we did it and it was successful. Everybody walked off.
And the freeways were plugged and it was a disaster.
>> Thomas Holyoke: Just curious. What was that? What was that for? What
was the point?
>> Walt Shubin: Oh, what was the point?
>> Thomas Holyoke: Yeah.
>> Walt Shubin: The unions called me one day and they said, "Can you help
us shut this port down? We hear you guys have tractorcades and blockades
in Washington, DC. You paralyzed Washington, DC with your tractorcade and
all that stuff. Would you come up to Los Angeles and come to a meeting
and see if we could put something together?" So a friend of mine and I
went up there and they said, "We have boatloads of stuff coming in from
all over the world. It's food, vegetables, fruits. You name it. It's
contaminated. And our USDA or FDA or whatever, both of them. We're going
on and this stuff is contaminated where it's not fit for human
consumption." "And our government tells us, you fix it or you lose your
job. So we want to shut this thing down." And they said, "People are
getting supposedly flus and stuff." They said, "It's not flu. They're
being poisoned by this food that we're forced to approve and it goes out
in the marketplace." So anyway, we between Los Angeles and San Francisco,
one of the big union attorney McKernan, we worked with him for two years
and we put it together and we called then farmers from all over the
United States with American Ag and they all flew in. It's a long story.
We shut that sucker down. And -- we had shut the Port of [Inaudible]
twice prior to that so we were pretty much aware of what's going to
happen. And attorney [Inaudible] what's going to happen. So we said when
the port authority guy comes out, gets on his bullhorn and orders
everybody back to work, he said, "They have to go back to work unless
they're threatened." So he said, "Walt, you're young." He said, "You
could handle it. When he gets on that bullhorn and starts telling
everybody to go back," he said, "You run in and knock him down. Broadside
him, knock him down and get on top of him. Don't hit him." He said,
"We'll pull you off." And so I said, "Okay." And so I did it. I got on

top of him and started to hit him and they grabbed me by the arms and
pulled me off. Because of the threat, the union people did not have to go
back to work plus they got paid. So then, they've got helicopters and
riot squads and plainclothes, cops with the big sticks and there's
thousands of workers lining the streets and everything. And they're
walking around and saying, "Don't you put your foot off that sidewalk and
put it on the street." And this guy is yelling. He's telling this guy,
"You get your foot up there," and he puts it up. So I get both feet up on
the thing. He comes running at me and I just stepped back and the people
locked their arms and I'm standing behind a row of people and so what are
you going to do now? And anyway, shortly after that, I'm kind of standing
around minding my own business and some of the farmers were talking to
the riot squad people and it turned out to be a hot day and they were
passing out because they're all standing in attention with all that gear
on. And they let the ambulance in and all the stuff to take care of them.
And all of a sudden, these two guys picked me up by the armpits and my
feet were barely touching the ground and they take me out and said, "What
the heck's going on? You know, we want you to, you got the town
paralyzed." And blah blah blah said, "What's it going to take to get your
tractors and your cables and everything out of here?" I said, "Let the
media in." And they said, "That's not going to happen." And I said, "Why
not?" And they said, "Well, the president's coming to town." Reagan had a
ranch up in the hills or something and they said, "We can't have any of
this and it's got to be cleaned up and you guys better pay attention."
And I said, "What happened to our freedom of speech and what have you?"
And they said, "Do you believe that," with some bad language behind it.
And I said, "Well, I guess I believed it up until now." And--So anyway,
about two o'clock in the morning, we got a call and said, "Be out of town
and get your tractors rounded up and get out of town or we're going to
put you where you're never going to see daylight again. And you're going
to get beat up in the process." So we loaded up. The San Pedro and Long
Beach paper made front page. The Los Angeles Times wouldn't touch it a
10-foot pole. And that was the end of it. That story never left Los
Angeles. Yeah. So anyway, I've been involved in a lot of crazy things.
>> Thomas Holyoke: So what are your thoughts about restoring the San
Joaquin River? Doable?
>> Walt Shubin: Oh absolutely! They spent, oh geez, I don't know. I'm not
going to quote a figure that I read in the Fresno Bee but tens and tens
of millions of dollars. They haven't turned a shovelful of dirt and I
understand a lot of that money is going to other projects other than the
restoration. And I've said for years now, "You put me in charge of that
sucker and I'll do it for free." That river had been flowing for millions
and millions of years. And you just turn the water loose and it knows -it'll find its way to the delta. And they say, "How about the barriers
that the farmers have on the channel where they hauled in tons and tons
of dirt so they could go across the river to their other piece of ground
on the other side instead of having to [inaudible]?" Anyway, they've got
all these barriers. A guy built a house in the middle of the river and
they said, "What are you going to do about that?" I said, "Well, what I
would do." They said, "The taxpayers are going to have to -- you know,
going to have to clean that up before we can turn any water down the
river." And I said, "No." I said, "Why should the taxpayers always have

to pay people that are down there that are farming? A lot of them are
millionaires and a couple of them are billionaires." I said, "Why should
we [inaudible]? They can't do that to the river. They can't dam off a
river, a flowing navigable river." And I said, "How I would handle it,
instead of taxpayers having to do it, tell them to get their levees and
barriers and everything out of the way and give them so much time to do
it. And if they don't do it, we do it and we -- bill the landowner. And
if he doesn't pay, we just take over his land. Take his land." Or the
next choice, I said, "I'd turn the water loose and let the water go
around those damn things out in the fields and what have you and let it
make its own channel." It can do a channel. I said, "It knows how to get
to the delta. No question about it." Like I said, millions and millions
of years of flowing and now we're spending -- they want to spend a
billion dollars to restore it. My God! That's insanity. But here's what
happens. These things, I was at a meeting at the court thing in Fresno
and that's when they were talking about getting that money together and
the guy comes up to me and he said, "Walt, what's your problem?" And I
said, "This whole thing is insanity." I said, "You're talking about a
billion dollars to restore the river. For Christ's sake, it's insane!
It's ludicrous." But he said, "If we don't get that money," he said, "I'm
going to be out of a job along with a whole bunch of us." And I said,
"You don't need this job. You can go find a job someplace else because
you're not doing a damn thing anyway." So here you go with all these
things that are happening. They get this money and they turn into little
bureaucracies. And I went to them. I was asked to do a talk up at, oh,
way up north in California. I can't think the name of the town. They
invite me up there for a couple two, three days and they pay my way in
the room and everything. And they invite me to their board meeting. And
they're putting this thing together on the farmer can't burn and you
can't have runoff your fields and what the heck they call it. Anyway, I
sat there at their board meeting and I listened to it all. And I'm
thinking, "Why," I said, "I farm and my place is as level as a table.
There's no runoff. But we have to have everybody pay to clean up the
messes that are caused by the West side in Napa Valley and all that
stuff." And I said, "Well, do you think it's going to fly?" "Oh yeah,
it's going to fly. We've got these grants and we've got another grant."
And I said, "Oh, how long have you guys been working on it?" And they
said, "Well, it's three years now." And I said, "You guys haven't done
anything yet." And they said, "No. But we're getting pretty close." And I
said, "Well, what's taking so long?" Well, you have to figure out the
renting of buildings, building buildings for offices and cars,
retirements, dental, medical, our salaries. For three years, that's what
it's taking to get this thing together." And I'm thinking, "Well, here we
got. We got another bureaucracy going to fleece the farmers." But I'm all
for a lot of this stuff. There's a lot of good stuff that comes out of
it. Burning is an example. -- Have you ever been out to an almond
harvest?
>> Thomas Holyoke: An almond harvest? I can't say I have, no.
>> Walt Shubin: Well, you want to see air pollution? Well, you -- I mean,
there's -- I live on the country and our neighbors, the length of a
football field. I wake up one morning and my whole house is glass. I live
in a glass house. I look out and I can't see across the swimming pool for

the dust. When they get through and this orchard is a quarter of a mile
away; when they got through just for that day, I had a quarter, probably
a quarter or half-an-inch of mud in the bottom of my pool. And that dust
cloud probably I'd say for a mile, a mile-and-a-half, just this plume of
dust. And here we're sitting here. I’m —- I’m -- You know, I am a farmer
and I've got to be careful of what I say. But what I'm saying is there
has to be a different method of sweeping up those almonds because we have
the worst air in the nation. Why are we allowing it to be -- pistachios,
they shake them. They got this apron and they shake them. Why can't we do
that with almonds?
>> Thomas Holyoke: So it's just harvesting?
>> Walt Shubin: I don't know. I know they'll probably have to dry them
because they shake them and let them dry and then they sweep them and
then they come out of the harvester and sweep them again. It's god-awful
and somewhere along the line, I know it's going to stop. It's not going
to be me saying stop it. Another bitch I have is leaf blowers. I mean,
we've got the worst air in the country and there's got to be thousands of
these people running around. One guy is blowing it one way and the other
guy is blowing it the other way. I was in Europe and I remember in the
third grade, I saw a picture of this lady with a broom and she's sweeping
this thing and she's got a little bag. And my wife and I were in -- we
were in Sweden. I parked the car and there was this little old lady. I
swear to God she's 80 years old with a long dress on, you know, old
grandma. She got that broom. It's not even a broom. It looks like it's
made out of sticks and it's round, bundled at the top. And she's sweeping
the sidewalk. There's nothing there but she's sweeping. And I ask a
person. I said, "What is this?" He said, "Everybody has a job." There's
no welfare. Everybody has a job. So going back to the Depression, I
remember I was in North Fork when I was about 11 years old. They had -what was it? Was it California, I don't know, CCC, I guess. And above
North Fork, my brother took me hunting for the first time. I guess I was
about 11 years old. And there must have been a thousand kids up there
grubbing brush. And let me -- Mr. Neil, who is in camp, talking about it
that evening, he said, "I think it's wonderful. They took all those kids
off the streets in San Francisco and Los Angeles." Because there were
gang problems and everything else, they took all those kids off the
street. No crime. Brought them up here and they paid them and housed them
and fed them and the whole thing. And why can't they do that today? I
mean, if we're going to get a check, have them work for it. We have
forest fires that cause gazillions of dollars because they're -- you
know, the Indians, going back to the Indians, I remember Mr. Kerman when
the Indian families used to come in there at camp. And over a couple of
two, three years, he was telling me about the Indians, how they lived and
everything for me. He said when the first snow hits the ground; he said
we used to walk down to the valley. And I said, "Where?" And he was
telling me at nighttime. The more he talked about it, I thought, "That's
where I live." And I said, "How can you winter when it's all under
water?" He said, "There were islands." And he said, "There were islands
everywhere." And he said, "Every island had Indians on them and then we
had camps along the river." And he said, "We had -- ducks, geese, fish."
He said, "I mean, there was more food than you could imagine." And he
said, "It was paradise for us." And their way of living at that time. So

I said, "You know, my grandfather when I was probably five or six years
old, came down from San Francisco and we went down to the end of Yuga and
there was a main channel and then there was a channel that came on the
south side around [inaudible] grove. And they called it oxbow bend or
whatever. And you had a way to cross it, this little shallow stream and
he wanted to go see the main river. On the way back, there was an Indian
bowl and I was walking behind him, Grandma and Grandpa and he looked down
and he looked at it and he said in Russian to my Grandma, "[Inaudible],
look! Someone made a hole in that rock." And she said, "So?" He said,
"Well, a human had to do it. I'm going to take it home." And it probably
weighed 30 pounds. And he, my grandfather had bad knees and everything.
He carried it away and he put it down and my grandma would say in Russian
anyway, she said, "Are you crazy? What are you going to do with it?" He
said, "I just have to take it home." So anyway, I still have that rock.
>> Thomas Holyoke: Oh.
>> Walt Shubin: And I probably, oh, coming back to the Indians walking,
when my wife and I got married, one spring day she said, "Let's go
somewhere up in the hills or go somewhere." And I said, "You know, about
the Kerman family telling me about how they used to winterize it. Let's
go on and see if we could find those high spots." And he told me about
the Indian bowls and everything. He said, "When they left, they always
Indian bowls." And I said, "How come they left them?" And he said, "You
think we're going to carry them?" And I said, "Well, how did they get
there in the first place?" He said, "They've been there for probably a
thousand years." And he said, "The Indians have camped there for
thousands of years or whatever and they said when we got ready to leave,"
he said, "You know, we wallowed out a circle and then we got our willows
and hides and we made our shelter and we had a fire in the middle and the
smoke went up through the top," and he told me all about it. And he said,
"When we got ready to leave," he said, "We always dug a hole and took the
ashes out and we turn the bowl upside down and covered it back up again.
And I said, "Why did you do that?" And he said, "Well, if you left it
open and the rain got in there and filled that rock full of water and the
frost hit it, it would break the rock." So anyway, my wife and I go out
there and we find this high spot and it was spring of the year. The grass
was just barely coming up and you could see the circles because all
through the years, it leveled it all off with the dust storms we used to
have and filled it in with this topsoil and the grass is twice as green
and twice as high as the rest of the grass because it had that topsoil in
those holes that they dug. And every one of those circles, we found an
Indian bowl. So I have about two dozen of them. In fact, I'd give them to
the museum up in North Fork. But anyway, it's when they leveled that
thing, you know, I take -- I had a river ranch for years and I used to
take people down there, photographers and artists and newspaper people
for years. And I tried to tell them what it used to be like. And we'd get
out to the flood plain and it's all vines and trees and I used to tell
them, "This will all be under water, trees and ducks and geese and the
wild flowers." And their eyes kind of roll around their head like I'm
crazy. But it's sad what's happened. I think like right now, they're
coming back to the river, we should -- like one of the farmers had
seepage and he put in a drain system because he said the government had
one. Then he turned around and dispersed that money to different

organizations that will fight the restoration of the river. And I'm
saying, if we're going to pay -- the government's going to pay this kind
of money to millionaires and billionaires, we just buy them out and those
seepage areas will be maybe a flood plain or a reserve type of thing for
ducks and geese or whatever. And the same way with the Westlands. You
know, they've been -- they retired I forget how many thousands of acres
and I think four people got $40 million because they sold it up. They
didn't pay probably $5 an acre for that land and they got paid thousands
an acre for it. And that land wasn't worth anything without water and the
taxpayers paid for it. And they claimed up on it. And those same people
are millionaires, most of them are millionaires. There's something crazy
about this picture. The other day, in the Fresno Bee, a guy had -- a
retiree, he was a barber. He had 10 acres of Sasha trees. You probably
saw it. He put a blue tag on it. He couldn't get any water. I said, "We
put a blue tag on Resnick, Boswells, Hancock Insurance Company. They
farmed hundreds and hundreds of thousands of acres."
>> Thomas Holyoke: Hancock? I didn't know that Hancock Insurance Company
owned the land out there?
>> Walt Shubin: Oh hell, yes. They got more land than Boswell and Resnick
put together. All that stuff that you see going in the Merced and Madera
Counties where the land has subsided 15 feet in the last few years, they
have no surface water so they're pumping it out of the ground. And it's
raising havoc with canals and everything. They are sinking and instead of
them being flat, they're -- you can't get water from one end to the
other. It's happening on in the West side.
>> Thomas Holyoke: The canals are all breaking, yeah.
>> Walt Shubin: Well, that's why I say it's creating havoc and I'm
saying, you know, -- John Hancock, those are Wall Street farmers,
investors. And they're planting trees by the miles and miles. They're
still planting. They're planting as we're talking and there's no water
and they're still planting trees. So here we have these people that are - they've never seen their land and they're investors and they're using
write-offs and subsidies and they're making money like a bunch of, bunch
of bandits, you might say and they're going to pump this whole valley
dry. All these nuts, pistachios and almonds are all going to China. And
after they suck our water dry or our aquifer dry, who's going to feed us?
You know, we say we have to feed the world? That's crazy! We can't feed
the world. We have to start looking out for ourselves because when -look at the Anasazi Indians. Have you seen the film, American Southwest,
Are We Dry yet?
>> Thomas Holyoke: Yes actually, I have.
>> Walt Shubin: Remember that town? It was a brand-new town completely
abandoned totally in the streets and no water. So what's going to happen
here when we run out of water? You know, one farmer told me, we're going
to lay a pipeline from Alaska. And I said, "Well." He said, "They got
oil." He said, "You look at a map and there's oil lines all over the God
dang United States. What's wrong with a line from Alaska?" I said, "You
know, why do we have to go there?" We have to have some common sense

somewhere. You know, we have all these geniuses that are educated above
their intelligence that don't know what they're – Chinese -- the Chinese
have or the Japanese have a philosophy. If you're not there, you know
nothing. So if there's a factory and the guy who's working on this stuff
says, "Hey, we need to fix this." He's there and he fixed it. But the way
our system works, we have like the restoration of the river, these people
have never seen the river, never been on the river. They're in charge of
the restoration of the river. They all have jobs. And they're studying.
The money people don't want that restoration to succeed. And I'm saying,
"Let's forget about the salmon. Let's put water back in the river because
it'll keep our aquifers alive." I remember going to a meeting once and
there was a fellow from Tulare County who said, "As long as there's water
in the Kings and the San Joaquin River, we're going to be farming. When
they dry those up, the party's over. The last person turn off the
lights." You'd have to give me a break.
>> Thomas Holyoke: Well, I'm actually out of questions. Is there anything
else you'd kind of wish to say on this?
>> Walt Shubin: So the San Joaquin River is our life blood and if they
talk about building new dams, building new dams is not going to make any
more rain. And it's not going to make it -- they're not going to make any
more new water. And to me, conservation is the name of the game. I did a
talk here at the university a couple of years ago. And I talked about
getting out of the movie and driving home and there's water in the
gutters. I said, "Talk about restoration of the San Joaquin River.
There's enough water going in the gutters. If they diverted it into the
San Joaquin River, we'd have a San Joaquin River." And the speaker behind
me was from Australia. And I'm talking about wasted water on lawns in
Fresno. He said, "Walter," he said, "in Australia, if they find a green
lawn, you go to jail." [Laughter] And he said their consumption is 30
gallons per person per day and Fresno at that time was 300 gallons per
person per day. And the Navajo Indians on the reservations in the latest
film that I saw by Robert Redford, the Navajo Indians, it's $12, I mean,
12 gallons a day. But it shows them getting in their pickup with all
their bottles and buckets and cans and going to a faucet and filling them
all and taking it home. And that's what they have to drink and wash
dishes and whatever. And that's conservation.
>> Thomas Holyoke: Well, I think Fresno's going to wake up to the fact
that we live in basically arid land.
>> Walt Shubin: We're living in a desert and we're watering lawns like
crazy and washing cars and in the paper today, they're going to fine you
$500 if they catch you washing up your sidewalks and we're living in a
desert. When you go to Arizona, you don't see green lawns. You see what
grows in that area and here, I have a thing at home that just remind me
of it. How we got started with green lawns. Have you ever seen that?
>> Thomas Holyoke: I don't know that.
>> Walt Shubin: I'll get it out and get it to you. But anyway, it started
in England evidently where they have rain all the time. And the only
people that had lawns were the very wealthy, wealthy people. And somehow,

it caught on here in America. If we had a green lawn, it made you
somewhat wealthy, you know. And so we have all these lawns. And my last
trip to Europe on a train, I -- I questioned a person. I said, "You know,
at home, we have -- everybody has a lawn." This is in England and
Germany. I said, "Every yard has a garden in the backyard." And he said,
"Yeah." And I said, "Tell me about it." "Well, we're in World War II, we
went over and bombed the bejesus out of everybody and bridges and
everything and they didn't have any food. There was no way of moving it."
So one German family was telling me, they'd go out to a known field where
there were potatoes and they'd get down on their hands and knees and dig
like gophers. And they'd find a potato and they cut it up and he said,
that's how tough it was for food. And here, we're growing lawns where we
should be growing food. You know, [laughter], I'm a rambler and I can
talk. You know, when you get to be 84 years old, somehow you just get
exposed to a lot of things. Just coming back to the river.
>> Thomas Holyoke: [Inaudible]
>> Walt Shubin: I bitch about this stretch of 25 miles from end of
Shields to the bypass. There's got to be gazillion loads of concrete,
broken concrete on both sides. I have bitched about it for years. And I
ended up taking a trip and I made it clear past the Merced River. I
thought it was just this 25 miles. My God! There's cement for hundreds of
miles. It was broken-up cement and I'm thinking, "Boy, you talk about
taxpayer's money at work. Where in the heck did they get all that
cement?" They made a giant canal and lined it up with broken cement for
hundreds of miles. It's crazy! And they didn't make it big enough because
well, when you talk about that last flood we had where it covered that
whole area, that I talked about when I was a kid, it was the biggest snow
pack we ever had in history. And they held that water in Friant Dam until
it ran over the dam then they had to turn it loose. It flooded the hell
out of everybody and the water was coming from the Kings River. At the
same time, Boswell has a thing. He sent his lobbyists to Washington, DC
where they can't put any water into the lake -- to flood him. So they're
dumping it and you had the Governor Schwarzenegger and all of our
supervisors at Firebaugh and they're dumping sandbags and it's a photo op
and they're all -- oh my God, we've got to build Temperance Flat Dam. If
we had Temperance Flat Dam, this wouldn't be happening. And I wrote an
article, the Fresno Bee wouldn't print it. So I put it in another, a
couple of other newspapers and the story got out. And that's another
story but anyway, I said, "Not one drop of San Joaquin River water was
going by Firebaugh. It was all being diverted into bypass. And the threat
was from the Kings River. And the reason for the threat was Boswell won a
law, didn't want water to go into the lake bottom as nature intended.
There's your problem. And God, they went crazy over it, you know. And
it's -- oh, how do you know that? And I said, "Well," I said, "I've been
down there three different times," and I said, "I've been caught. I've
been down there more than that but I've been caught three times and the
third time," I said, "I thought I was going to get the hell beat out of
me." But I said, "They held back," and I said, "You know, if I were
younger, I would beat the hell out of all three of them." Because I said,
"I was a mean, tough oil field worker," and I said, "I could take on
anybody." And I said -- But anyway, they said, "The next time we catch

you on the levee, you're going to jail." So I haven't been back on that
levee anymore but anyway.
>> Thomas Doyle: This is at Boswell's land?
>> Walt Shubin: No, this was right here on -- between Shields and the
bypass.
>> Thomas Doyle: Oh.
>> Walt Shubin: The Chowchilla Bypass. And that's when the river was
flooding. Anyway, one person said, "You know, Walt, that last time they
caught you, that's when they were having the photo op." And they had a
thing that no one was allowed on any roads or levees or banks or
anything. I don't know how many mile radius. And what the hell were you
doing out there in the first place? And I said, "Well, I was filming." I
got tons of film. One of these days, I'm going to -- and I've already
talked to Chris Beaver about it and I said when I die, I want you to get
all of my film and do the story on it because I said it's stuff that no
one's ever seen or heard of. And I talk all the way through all the stuff
that I'm filming. So it's -- I just think that we have to look at the San
Joaquin River as our lifeline for water and our aquifer. They talk about
building all these little ponds. Mother Nature created the system of
starting with just like that floodwater that they released that one year
that it flooded that whole countryside and orchards and you name it.
Every canal, every creek was dry prior to when they released that water.
They could have been putting water in the Madera Canal Systems,
Chowchilla Systems, Cottonwood Creek, San Joaquin River, Fresno
Irrigation District Canals, there's canals like spider webs from one end
of the valley to the other. They could have been dispersing that water
through all the canal systems and all the dry river bottoms and Tulare
County feeding that. They could have spread that water all over the
place. They wouldn't have been one drop go to the ocean. I believe we
need to have water going into the ocean because of the salmon but on the
other hand, what an opportunity to put water back in our aquifer. And
they blew it because they wanted to build by God Temperance Flat Dam and
people don't understand we won't get a drop of that water. It's just like
up until this restoration project, we were getting two percent of the
water. The rest of it was 75% of us were going to Tulare and Kern County.
Basically what? Resnick. And then they had the Monterey agreement that
you probably heard about where the taxpayers pay for the whole land, the
wells, the canals, and then Resnick ends up with the water bank. And
there's a lawsuit going on, I think it's going to get turned around here.
It's going to take years. It took 15 years for the restoration thing. So
this thing will probably take another 15 years but I imagine they'll get
it turned around. And when they're selling water for $1500, $2000 an acre
foot and the water's supposed to belong to the people of California, why
isn't that promise of that water coming back to the State of California?
We'd be the richest country in the world just over our water, you know?
It's crazy. It’s –- It’s --It's all about greed. I had a little thing in
the paper the other day. It was my test run. -- The beef, for some
reason, I guess because of Warren. I wouldn't allow my articles to be
printed anymore so I quit writing but I put that little thing in there
just as a test run. There's plenty of water for everybody's needs but not

enough for a few rich people's greed. And they printed it. So I'm going
to tell my story about all this water that they finally took away from
the fish and not one drop of water went to the fish. It all went to the
farmers -- so.
>> Thomas Holyoke: Excellent.
>> Walt Shubin: So that's my next project [laughter].
>> Thomas Holyoke: Okay! Well, thank you very much for everything.
[Silence]

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