Portuguese Beyond Borders Institute Collection

Eric Dutra Interview

Dutra, Eric

Borges, Diniz

ENG

Portuguese Beyond Borders Institute

3/6/2022

SCUAD_pbbi_00067

Diniz Borges: Welcome everyone to another one of our summer series for
the Portuguese Beyond Borders Institute at California State
University, Fresno. First time ever that we are doing a summer series
with three different presentations. Uh, the first one July 1st this
one today and the next one July 15th. This is also of course being
part of the Portuguese Beyond Borders Institutes oral history project.
So, all of our uh, webinars are part of that, they become archived at
the Henry Madden Library and transcribed for future generations. So,
uh, we want to welcome each and every one of you who are here on the
webinar and those who are following us, especially on social media.
Thanks to those of you who already are kind enough to put likes and
things of that nature we will try to have also any questions uh that
we can answer for you from our guests. So, if you'd like to either on
the webinar or those of you following us on social media, please do so
there. And I'll try to kind of harder because we are in several pages,
but we try to see if we can answer some of your questions Also, our
Portuguese Beyond Borders Institute, uh, summer series, as long as, as
well as our regular series are also archive through the
Portuguese Beyond Borders Institute. That's PBBI Fresno State's
actually just called Fresno State PBBI YouTube page. So hopefully you
can all join us as well there. If you do not watch live, we're very
excited to have with us today a young man. Um, sometimes in these oral
history projects we have old people like myself or even older believe
it or not, there are people older than me. Uh, and uh, so we try, we
have a lot of times in the oral history people in their sixties and
seventies and eighties. Um, and it's not too often that we have a lot
of young people, but as we try to promote with an oral history and the
history and the, and the stories of the Portuguese Americans in
California. Everyone has a history. So, whether you're 22 or you're 62
whether you're 18 or 78 there's a history. Obviously if you're 78
you've lived a lot longer. So, your history has a different
technology. But the chronological order is a little bit more, longer
than a 22 or 25 or 30 year old. But everyone does have a history and
all of them need to be archived because if we don't do that it will
disappear in future generations. And the other thing is, and that is
what we why we do what we do at PBBI. Is that oral history of the
Portuguese in California isn't by isn't just the, the history of the
immigrant community, those who left Portugal like this. Uh young man's
grandfather and father and his father at the tender age. Um it's not
those who just left Portugal. The Portuguese American experience is
the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and in some cases even 5th generation people
who still, even though it was their great grandfather or their great,
great grandfather that immigrated, they still have a connection to
those islands of the Azores or other parts of Portugal as well. So,
we'd like to introduce to you Eric Dutra. Eric lives in Southern
California, he comes to the Fresno area uh once in a while uh he has a
connection here, but he lives, it was born and raised I believe in

Southern California will tell a little bit about that. So first and
foremost, Eric welcome.
Eric Dutra: Hi, how are you Diniz?
Diniz Borges: Fine, fine. Thank you so much for taking time. We're
excited about this presentation. I, um I must say just first of all
that I learned about Eric through his father who is a friend that I've
known for many years and his grandfather, a colleague of mine in the
Portuguese newspaper world for many years as well. And, and his paper
is outstanding. His, his, his research and his love for history is
shown and we hope to share that with you. So, Eric tell us a little
bit about yourself, who is uh, Eric Dutra in a little bit of a
nutshell for those who have never heard of you.
Eric Dutra: Yeah, so, um my name is Eric Dutra, like, like you said to
me, so I just recently graduated from Whittier College. I am a history
major with the philosophy minor my journey to become a history major
was actually a pretty easy one. I was really blessed and lucky. Um,
ever since I was a child, my grandfather on my father's side and
mother's side uh, instilled in me a love for history, whether it be as
we'll get to in the paper, my Vovô’ stories in the war and coming to
America or watching the History Channel before, it was all aliens with
my mother's grandfather or with my mother's uh father. Um, I'm born
and raised in Southern California that being said, I do have a
girlfriend who lives in Fresno and that's why I'm up there pretty
frequently. I'll be up there next week. Um, it's, it's so awesome that
I was, I was fortunate enough to, to grow up in the Portuguese, up in
the Portuguese community. Um every festa at the Para de Artesia D.E.S.
we would be at um. When I was younger, I didn't appreciate it as much.
I was like oh I don't I don't really know what's going on here now
that I've gotten older and I'm able to hang out at the bar watch
Portugal in the, in the World Cup or in the Euro leagues. Um I've
grown a lot more appreciative of the culture and going back to why I
became a history major. Um, I became a historian because I very much
believe that you're not just, a single individual’s not just their own
history, they’re their family's history they’re their nation's history
they're their and they're all their ancestors put together. It's
really important that we preserve that, because we can't go forward if
we don't know the past. Um I've been a very big believer in that since
I decided I want to be a history major in about the third grade, um
which is weird to say a lot of my friends, they're still trying to
figure out what major they want to be and, and I was really lucky that
I found my path. Um, so the paper that I wrote, just some background
on that I went ahead for my final year at Whittier College, I had to
take a class about world history and the professor and this, he's
still a mentor of mine. I still reach out to him, and we talk um Jose
Arrozco. He wanted to write a paper for everyone for everyone in the
class about their family history, because like, uh like myself, he

believes that history is ancestral and you carry the history of not
just yourself, but your family and your ancestors. Um, so when I, when
he assigned that paper, my instant reaction was, I have to record the
history of my Vovô. I've gotten really close to him over the past
couple of years. I've gotten older and um, he has an incredible story
and I really think that it was something that, in the current
historical climate that that we're in, where there's such an emphasis
on colonialism, decolonialism and the Cold War and things along those
lines, he fits right into it from a Eur, from a different perspective
because he's a primary source. And I'm sure we'll get into the nitty
gritty of the paper. Um, and I'll be, I kind of alluded to primary
sources. Secondary sources. Primary sources is a firsthand account and
a secondary source is a scholarly source that's kind of written thanks
to the primary sources. Um, just to lay definitions out there when we
get into the paper.
Diniz Borges: It’s a good. Yeah, thank you for doing that I appreciate
that. Um, and so, um, it was basically when you were taking this
course on world history, uh, and the professor and kudos to him for
wanting people to dig into their family. A lot of times um, oral
history and the history of families sometimes uh get on the back
burner, although in historical terms as you know, and you've learned
in your studies that oral history now has a pretty prominent place. It
didn't, it hasn't always been this way. It wasn't this way 25, 30
years ago, even longer than that. And so, um you decided to of course
because you, you want to study history because you want to be a
historian, you decided to go into your grandfather's um story. And did
you before you started? Um because on your paper, you talk a little
bit, that's actually how you start in a, in a, in a very nice way uh
by talking about family dinners whether it be at Christmas or other
holidays, where a Avô would like to tell stories. That's kind of a
Portuguese thing, actually, it's a multiethnic thing every, every uh
different ethnicity, a Avô or grandfather uh like to tell, likes to
tell stories um some fiction, some not fiction, some a mixture of
both, but tell me a little bit about these stories that you would hear
um when you were younger uh from your Avô, when did they began to,
when did you begin to hear them? Or when they begin to click with you?
Eric Dutra: Yeah. So you know, I, I've every Christmas Eve, or really
every time that I would go over to my gran, or Avô’s house. Um ever
since I was, I was born really since I could remember, um he’d always
tell stories about, about the Azores, about Faial, Pico. Um and his
time in the war, sometimes to the dismay of my grandmother, where some
of my most fond memories is when my grandfather is telling a more,
more, more gory story and Avó is going, “Ay, ay!” just like trying to
get him to be quiet and it's always really funny to me to, to, to uh
listen to them and how that transpired. Um it didn't really start to
click for me really until I was about 7th, 8th grade when I first got

exposed, exposure to um the age of colonialism and the explosion of
your Christopher Columbus, your Vasco de Gama's, um that my
grandfather was living that history and that he was a byproduct of it.
Um and it never really hit me until about the 7th, 8th grade when I got
to that and my, my, my high school years. I was fortunate enough to
have my grandfather and grandmother around still and I still hear
those stories and I began to kind of piece things together little by
little, um and in side conversation, in side conversations with my
dad, you know, I started the paper with a quote from my dad, which I
really think summarized the entire paper, especially after
interviewing my grandfather and talking about it and I'll just quickly
read it to you. “Africa was equivalent to the effect Vietnam had on
America, the public and the army did not want to be there, and it was
a lost cause.” Um and, and through those conversations that I had with
my dad, especially as I got older and more mature to understand those
concepts of um, sometimes the government doesn't do what the people
want to do and I'm sure we'll get into the Carnation Revolution. Um,
and, and, and, and we'll get to that dynamic. Um, I began to really
kind of piece together where my, where my grandfather's head was when
being when, when being, when he was present in this event, the Guinea
Bissau Wars, and then looking from afar the Carnation Revolution and
everything that transpired after.
Diniz Borges: The stories got you to, of course, do some of the
research. So, let's talk a little bit about some of the research that
you did. Um uh, so it led you to wanting to know a little bit more
about uh Portuguese colonization in Africa. Of course, you have a
historical outline of uh, colonization and, and, and, and, and in
general and, and, and then you enter a little bit more into the
specifics of Africa, and you talk of course about the, the Dutch, the
French, the English, and of course the Portuguese. And so, um uh this
research that you did, um how much of this uh you know, did you was,
was important to get to because of what of the stories that your
grandfather had had given you?
Eric Dutra: Yeah. Um so my, my. Every single historical, the way that I
see is that history is put on by a thread and you can kind of piece
everything together with a cause and effect. So, the effect in my mind
when I started to do the research after, you know, three years of
intensive courses and then my own research as a high school student
and in in college, the effect of colonialism was like the Guinea
Bissau Wars, the wars in Angola and Mozambique as well. Um but I
really wanted to, my paper get to the cause of why, of why my
grandfather and so many people in the, from the Azores and, and, and
the mainland were in Africa. Because I really wanted to tell a
complete story. The history of Portugal in Africa doesn't just
encompass that small subsection of the world. It really encompasses
the entire world because it wasn't just the Portuguese in Africa, it

was that it was the Dutch, it was the French, it was the English. Um
it was, and when we get into the 20th century where the Chinese, we
have the Cubans in in Africa trying to gain it, we have the Americans.
Everyone was trying to gain influence in this one continent, this one
space and I really wanted to get to the root of it. Um I talk about in
my paper that a lot of history is Eurocentric um and Eurocentric.
Center centric is center euro European. Um and I later talked, and I
argue that it's not Eurocentric, it’s polycentric. There are many
centers in the world and one of the largest centers, especially for
our purposes is Africa, is the quote unquote Third World, which it was
called at the time and still sometimes called. It's a really important
area of history that need to be shared. And I really wanted to get
back to the root of it and the Vasco da Gama's Voyage uh down Africa
and into India to get that route is really where I began the paper
because that's where it all began.
Diniz Borges: And so, as you did your research, what, what findings
surprised you and uh what findings, you know, tell us a little bit
about the trajectory of the research as you, as you compare it of
course, and, and you know based on what your grandfather’s stories,
but we'll get your grandfather's stories a little bit. I want you to
tell, tell me to kind of give us a little bit of a narrative of some
of the research that you did that uh that gave you uh the tools that
you needed of course to write the paper, the tools that you needed to
uh to, to based upon your thesis of what you were writing.
Eric Dutra: Yeah. And I this is where you and me first connected um
where, where we would Zoom and, and talk via email about um resources.
Because I was really struggling to find solid information about, about
the war and about Portuguese history, because Portuguese history
sometimes gets lumped in with French and English history because those
are the quote unquote, larger empires. Um so I, I really started with
a question. I wanted and the and the question or query as um we call
it in history and I'm sure in other professions was “At what place did
my grandfather land in the overall Portuguese history from the
beginning to the end and how has that impacted today?” And so, the
first thing I looked up that I wanted to look up was, Vasco de Gama.
He's the largest, he's one of the more well-known Portuguese
explorers. So, I wanted to get to the root of that and I found a
beautiful quote from Daniel Borstein in his work, The Discoverers and
it essentially talks about, and he talks about the importance of de
Gama's voyages in comparison to Columbus’s voyages and how it's really
de Gama who established that network and cut out the middlemen to get
into Asia to get into Africa as well. And that's when I started to
look more into Portuguese exploration. And I started to look into how
we got to Guinea Bissau um and from there I began to, and this will
tie into one of the more interesting things I found, uh Portuguese
ruined Guinea. Uh so Portugal began to colonize Guinea when they first

got there and they, they explored there, claimed all the land
essentially in Africa for Portugal. Eventually the French and English
come in and Portugal still gets to keep Guinea and Mozambique, Angola
and a couple other places. Um and the way that they kept control of
Guinea was very unorthodox for the time. And I believe I have a quote
in my paper, if I can find it. Yeah, so in the International Journal
of African Historical Studies, Peter Mendy, he talks about how the
leadership and governance of Portugal is really lax, compared to other
colonial powers at first. Um and it wasn't until the morale was low in
mainland Portugal that they began to assert, assert Portuguese
European dominance on the Guineans. And it took about a three-year war
to kind of put the iron fist, the iron foot down on the Guineans. I
was really shocked at first to see that it was really, Portugal left
Guinea to itself. I believe it was from that exact same article that
said it was in the nation's best interest to keep the Portuguese flag
high, but the people that set the laws were their own people. The
Portuguese were just there as a figurehead. It was until the morale
was low when the Portuguese went in and started to cast the iron boot.
Um that was really interesting. Another thing that was really
interesting to me was this was this wasn't something that was expected
when I first wrote the paper, I got a history of my grandmother. So,
my, my grandmother passed away about four or five years ago and I
wasn't able to really talk to her about her experience in Africa. And
it was relatively unique for a, a soldier in the army to bring his
wife and son to Africa. Um and then learning about Governor Spinola’s
better Guinea program and seeing how she entered, she fit in that
history was super interesting to me and it really kind of made me feel
closer to my grandmother, even though she's, she's passed now. I
remember kind of piecing everything together and getting quite
emotional about it, because I just, it was like I got to meet my
grand, a younger version of my grandmother.
Diniz Borges: And so, as you were, uh that's, that's wonderful. Um and
sometimes we do discover that a bit too late, you know, but it is
wonderful to discover it. Um some people go through life and don't
discover those connections even after, uh once uh close family passes.
Um so when you were when you were doing this research and you were
talking and, and let's go back to the research a little bit. I know
we, we, we connected as you said a few times. And um did you, it was
still not the easiest thing in the world to find research, or was it
easy to find things in English especially about the Portuguese
presence in Africa, about the Portuguese colonial experience, about
the Portuguese from different perspectives? Uh you have, you know, of
course you were excited. You have, you know, your bibliography but um
how was that search?
Eric Dutra: It was, it was really challenging actually, I um I was
really getting frustrated because, you know, my, my specialty in

history is 20th century history and the Cold War. There's a lot of
history on that. I could, I could go on google, I could go on any um
scholarly journal website, just type in the Cold War and I'll get a
million different articles. Portuguese colonization to get in English.
It was a lot harder. There was maybe, and, and, and getting the
specific history that I was interested in. The Guinea Bissau, the
history about Amilcar, uh Amilcar Cabral and, and the history, like
Farim, a little village on the border of Senegal and trying to get
history like that because I wanted to get as detailed as possible. It
was really, it was really challenging, and I had to really um I've
really had to work extra hard, especially at night when I'm usually
wanting to FaceTime my girlfriend or have dinner with my family. I was
really struggling to find those papers and I had to put the extra
hours in to really immerse myself in histories that weren't
necessarily part of the Portuguese history. But there were subsections
that were talking about it and trying to piece the puzzle together
without all the puzzle pieces was really challenging. But eventually I
was able to compile a lot, I think a pretty decent list of oral
histories and secondary sources to really complete the paper in a
correct manner. It was a lot easier to find early, like the explore,
age of exploration and the um, Portuguese early colonization into
Guinea. Finding the later history was a lot more challenging.
Diniz Borges: Tell us a little bit what you found about Amilcar Cabral
who was the leader of the uh, of, of the so-called freedom fighters
at, at the time. I mean there was all kinds of names, you know, from,
from, from names that were, that were kind of define who they were.
Other names who weren't, were a little bit more pejorative some of
them were over, over overly excited about, you know, but he was the
leader of the movement to uh to basically get independence uh, for
what is now called Guinea Bissau at that time was just called Guinea
and, and, and, and for and, and for listeners, of course, as many of
you, of you know. That there was the provinces, but the, the, the war
was basically as uh Eric says in the newspaper in three of those five
colonies that are now five independent countries. And that was Guinea
Bissau, Mozambique and Angola. And they were all three uh pretty uh,
bloody events. But Guinea was, was, was, was, was, was, was a indeed a
tough place as well. So, tell us a little bit what you found about
him, uh, the leader of that movement.
Eric Dutra: Yeah. And before I get to it, I, I really funny, when I was
talking to my Avô about Guinea and how bloody it was. He was actually
wearing that as a interesting not badge of honor, but he was proud to
say that he fought in the bloodiest in the bloodiest part of the war.
And actually my, my Tio fought in Angola and my grandfather was like
make sure that you write in there, that Tio Carlos was in Angola where
it wasn't as bloody and he was, he was very much one of those things
where he was trying to tease and, and, and, and they still talk about

it. I know that my Tio and, and Avô still talk about that. Um the
biggest thing that that really interests me about, about Cabral and I
was able to look at this through the lens of the Cold War and through
the lens of the rise of Marxism and the rise of Mao Zedong and Fidel
Castro, Che Guevara. Um and, and that's how I looked at, at Amilcar
Cabral. He, he was a leader of a, a freedom fighters as, as, as you as
you mentioned, and he had influences with Mao Zedong. His, his
strategy was very much the same strategy that Chairman Mao used to get
Chiang Kai-shek out of China, which was we're going to take over the
countryside. We're going to have our war in the countryside and the
goal was to push the Portuguese forces off to the sea and they can
control all the countryside while the Portuguese control the cities.
And I think that looking at it through that lens and comparing him to
I mean not, not just Mao, Mao Zedong, but there were obviously other
wars that were being fought in, in Africa at the time for, for
colonization, I know that the a French colony, I'm forgetting the name
of it right now, but the French were very much entrenched in deep wars
as well um, in that exact area. So, I, I look at Cabral through that
great man history. He was a leader of the freedom fighters, and he was
the kind of foil to Spinola who was the leader for the Portuguese for
the Portuguese Army for a little bit and as well as the Governor of
Guinea for a period as well. Another thing that really interests me is
how the recruitment that the, that, that Cabral and the freedom
fighters had is um, this is through the Better Guinea Program and I'm
sorry, I'm all over the place. When I, when I talk about this stuff I
tend to jump.
Diniz Borges: It’s okay.
Eric Dutra: Um so the Better Guinea Program. It was a goal to educate
everyone, all the Guineans about, about their history and, and
Portuguese history and trying to bring everyone up to speed. That
didn't work so well in some cases for Spinola because that just made
Cabral's forces very educated and very smart about strategy and very
smart about how to win more people over. And he used that to his
advantage. He was a very smart tactician. Um so, that that was the
biggest thing that I admired his, his tactics and unlike a lot of
countries that were fighting for independence, Cabral was willing to
get the help from everyone. During the Cold War, you had a split
between Mao and the Chinese form of communism under Chairman Mao and
you have the form of communism and Marxism under Russia, under, under
the USSR which was Stalin, Brezhnev and other soviet leaders. And
there was a real split there. Cabral was willing to take anyone's
help. A lot of the other countries, for example, Cuba they were they
were very much I am a soviet Marxist. Cabral didn't care about that.
He only cared about the greater cause of working, the workers of the
world, uniting and overthrowing the colonial powers. That was

something that really caught my eye when, when analyzing Cabral's
history.
Diniz Borges: So, um so he had, from your perspective, I mean, he, he
had uh, he was a little bit more open minded and, and not allegiance
to just one section. He was more into his cause, which was of course
he was a Marxist, which was Marxism, but at the same time the
independence of his of his area, of his country.
Eric Dutra: Yeah. And I really think of it as um, it's kind of a
Machiavellian the ends justify the means, and the means was a united
and a free Guinea Bissau and he was willing to use any means to that
end. He was willing to go get Russian weapons and use Mao’s strategy.
He was willing to get, he's willing to get support from the Cubans. He
was going to get support from anyone that was going to listen and
believe in the Guinea concept. And I really think that a lot of these
freedom fighters and, and Marxist leaders, they believed in the
concept and that really drove them to be more charismatic and really
just rooted in what they believe in because they weren't, they were
fighting for a concept, they were fighting for a philosophy kind of
like what we have in America. I know that Margaret Thatcher, she talks
about how America wasn't united by history, that united by philosophy.
And that's kind of what I think about when I think about a Marxist
revolution or freedom fighters, they united by a philosophy of freedom
and freedom meant something real to them and that that really kind of
spoke to me when, when really digging into not just Cabral but Mao
Zedong and all these different other Marxist leaders, that Che
Guevara, that came up at the time.
Diniz Borges: Okay, let's uh let's transition now to the, the, the oral
history and the history of the of, of, of, of the man of the hour
here, which was your grandfather and your grandmother. Um so um a
little bit about your, a little bit about your grandfather, I mean so
tell us who he is, and we know he was according to the paper, he was
born in 1933. Uh and from the beautiful island of Pico and so in the
Azores. And tell us a little bit about his trajectory and what he told
you from the Azores in the 1960s. Because when he went to Guinea, he
knew what was going on. And it's not like he was going to go to Guinea
in the 1950s when very few people, I mean, there were already some
freedom fighters and there were things going on in the late fifties,
early sixties, but not a lot of people knew about it. But when he went
in the mid-sixties, I mean, it was in the height of the, of the Guinea
crisis and yet he chose, or he applied for this position. So, tell us
a little bit about that that trajectory.
Eric Dutra: Yeah, 100%. So,
is also Fernando Dutra, but
he was born on the islands.
technology. The Azores were

although for Fernando Dutra senior, my dad
he's junior. Um, so Fernando Dutra senior,
At the time there was obviously no
kind of the um, I don't want to say the

place that that that technology forgot but there wasn't a lot of
technology there. And um Avô really wanted to, wanted to be a um
technician. He really enjoyed getting involved in mechanics. He really
wanted to learn how to do that. He knew he wasn't going to get that on
the island. So, he enlisted in the army in the hopes of just getting
an education. Uh couple years later he meets Avó and they want to
start a family. So he go, he enlists in the army as a, what he liked
to call it a professional soldier and he willingly went to Guinea
because it was, it was a better payday for him to, to start a family.
Um, as, as we get deeper into the paper, my and this one of the most,
one of the more profound things that my grandfather told me, it's
still kind of gives me the chills. Is that a lot of the soldiers there
did not want to be in Guinea after their first tour. After, after
their first time there. Because they realized that, and this is how
grandpa put it. Portugal's for the Portuguese and Guinea was for the
Guineans. He really believed that to his core. And it really, it was a
philosophical battle that he was dealing with. You know, he had a,
wanting to support the country. But he also understood that what he
was doing was sometimes not right and that really led to him coming to
America which will, which we’ll get to. Um, but back to grandpa so he
first went, he did two tours, if I remember in Guinea, he didn't want
to go back for a third one and that's how he got to America. And he
was in one of the most bloody areas, the village of Farim and him and
his men would pretty much go from village to village establishing
Portuguese rule, start establishing missionaries, establishing
churches and just trying to keep support alive there for the
Portuguese cost, for the flag. Um this ties into my grandmother, my
grandmother was there to be a schoolteacher and one of the things that
I really loved, and it just proved my grandmother's sainthood, because
I'm sure everyone has a Avó story where their Avó is a saint. Um my of
a story is that she was loved by the students. She was loved by the
people there and she was, she was just loved by everyone that that was
that she got in contact with while in Africa and that comes through
the Better Guinea Program which, um, as I was beginning to piece
everything together, I began to realize why Avó went. Um, and just
seeing everything tie in was really cool to me. Um, but yeah, he did,
my, my grandfather did two tours in Guinea, came back home, went to
Timor for a little bit, which was a lot less violent. Um, I believe
that the most bloody situation he had, there was one tribe
accidentally killed another goat from another tribe and Avô had to go
in and just handle the situation just like all right guys calm down.
Um, and then he came back to the Azores and sent my dad here first.
Came back, put everything in place and then him, my grandmother, my
uncle who was, I believe seven. They went ahead and came to America.
Diniz Borges: So, um, first of all, it's interesting to reiterate what
you said that your grandfather did not, was not drafted. So, most of
not, most, I would say it's certainly most because it's not all of

them as your grandfather proved, but a great majority and I'm not
going to even predict, but a great majority of those fighting in the,
uh, what we called at the time, overseas wars, ultramar. Um, the most
of those wars, whether it be in Angola, Mozambique or Guinea, it um,
were drafted, you know, when you were 18, you went into the army, he
decided to go actually at a little bit older age and he decided to go
as a sort of a volunteer in other words. Uh, he volunteered to go
there. Um, did he talk to you and uh, of, for the paper, but not in
and also throughout the other conversations uh, what was this take of
those two tours? I mean, um, he talked to you about some of the other
than the bloody wars of course, and, and, and, and saying that and he
was right in many aspects, it was bloodier than Angola in certain
areas. Um, so did he tell you a little bit about how, because you,
you, you mentioned there that, you know, that thought that he had the
Port, Portugal is for the Portuguese and Guinea is for the Guineans
answers. So, in other words, you know, what are we doing here? So how,
how did he, did he ever talk about this duality that he had to live
with and some of the things that, that, uh, that made him, um, uh but
it didn't have him do a second tour. So, um, tell us a little bit
about the experiences he shared with you.
Eric Dutra: Yeah, you know, um one of the things that my grandfather
really enjoys talking about are the encounters you’d have with the
freedom fighters and um he always would talk about skirmishes. He'd
have um one of the skirmishes that he always talks about is how his
house was attacked and at nighttime and it was just him against uh he
always likes to exaggerate it, he claims it was a whole army, I don't
think it was. Um but he had to wake up in the middle of the night to
protect his house from this probably squad of freedom fighters who
were trying to take out my grandfather and by a byproduct, my dad and
my grandmother. Um he, he always likes to talk about that story. I
think that really encapsulates how my grandfather felt while in
Africa. He was always on his toes. They were always afraid, not
afraid, but they were always aware that they were in a situation where
they could be ambushed. And I think that that tense that that tense
nature of being in the war, while also philosophically thinking Guinea
is for the Guineans, Portugal's for the Portuguese, while still having
that that philosophical battle. This is my job versus what I think is
right. That's a struggle that, that I still kind of think that when he
was, this is just me guessing um when he was younger and, and still
trying to figure things out, it was a struggle for him. I think that
now he has a lot more clarity and peace with everything and obviously
he's very thankful that he was able to get out of a third, out of a
third tour and was able to get out of the country before the
revolution happened and all that stuff. Um but I really think that
that was a struggle for him is that balance of I have a duty that that
sense of duty that that a soldier has that is beaten instilled into
them versus the wait a second, this doesn't seem right. Um but for the

most part, the experiences that he would share are either stories that
were him in um in skirmishes or stories where he would have to go as a
as a government official to go collect a collect quotations “a spy.”
Another story that he would tell is that at one um my Avó's assistant
was a spy and my grandfather had to go in and very calmly escort her
out and try and Avó had to keep all the kids calm. And um that that's
a really interesting story as well because it shows the strength my
grandmother had um and, and the kind heart that she had as well of
bringing this assistant and regardless of, of being in a war and, and
taking her in and really trying to develop her into a teacher that way
when Avó leaves, the Guineans and the children, they have a teacher
still. Um it really shows the duality of kindness versus duty and the
complexities that that were at play there, because it wasn't just a
war between two opposing armies, it was an entire people. It wasn't it
was men, women, children that were at the forefront of this war and
everyone was affected by it. And that was the big thing I took away
from, from the stories, especially as I began to sit down and think
critically of it, is that war in general is something that affects
everyone. It's not just the people that are fighting, it's the people
at home, the people that are in the war zone. And that really kind of
opened my eyes to a different philosophical aspect to war and history.
Diniz Borges: And there's a quote that you have there when your
grandfather goes into the jungles, uh, the rural areas of course. And
he talks and he says, um, and you quote here that he talks to the
terrorists were on top of trees. So, did he, does he use those words
because that that was common in the 1960s? I recall. I was very young,
but I'm not as old as maybe I look, but I was in the 1960s when I was
basically going through my for education in Portugal up until the
fourth grade. And I left in 1968. We, we were we were taught in
school, you know the terrorists. Um, and, and, and so that that was
what we, you know, were that we were taught in school. That's what I'm
that's what people were taught, you know, through newspapers, though.
And I'm sure, and in your case, and your grandfather going to, so that
does he the. He used this this this word that later on, when you
describe it, you kind of, in your own words, you talk about freedom
fighters. But does he, how does he compare those two? Does he ever
talk to you about that? Or is he basically because of his loyalty to
the flag, as you mentioned. You know, I mean, these people were being
terrorists.
Eric Dutra: Yeah. And you know, this was the, this was a really, this
was a looking in the mirror kind of situation. Um, and I remember me,
me and my and my professor of Professor Orozco, we had a conversation
when I, when I turned in my first draft, he's like, you use this word
terrorist a lot. Is that a correct term to use? And I was well, what
do you mean? That's how my grandfather put it? And he was like, well,
the job of a historian is to be a detective. The job of a historian is

to look at oral history with a critical eye and to get the truth out
of it. And not the subject or not, not, not a subjective term like a
terrorist. Um, and yeah, so he, my, my grandfather used terrorist
every single time that that that we talked about it. And even to the
extent that well, my dad was there, my, my dad would use freedom my,
my dad would mix between freedom fighter and terrorists, which was a
really interesting dynamic because my dad's obviously bilingual. So,
it's the Portuguese side saying terrorists, but the potentially
American side that, that what gets to look away from the situation
and, and, and the war he's as a freedom fighter. Um that's a really
interesting dynamic that I really struggled with that first because I,
I wanted to believe my grandfather I want to, and, and, and part
partly because I, I'm, I'm very, I don't want to say loyal to the
Portuguese flag, but I very much respect the flag and respect my
family history. I am, for the first part of that draft, I was like,
yeah, they're, they're terrorists, but then I began to put my
historic, my historian hat back on. I was like, well that's not
correct. Um, as far as my grandfather, I think that my grandfather
really believed that they were terrorists. Um, and it might be because
he was fighting in the war, he saw some of his best friends get shot
by these people and he wasn't. He was thinking about it through that
lens instead of the greater lens that he was that he later can look
back on. Um, but one thing that that I will say, and, and I remember
you and me having a really good conversation about this uh, and
Antonio Salazar was a very good person when it came to propaganda. He
knew how to twist the story to make it pro Portugal pro, pro Salazar,
pro, and pro regime. So, calling a freedom fighter a terrorist, brings
out a sense of nationalism in someone and that nationalism is going to
promote an emotion and the emotion’s usually going to be pro Portugal.
And that was the reason why I think that my grandfather still uses
terrorists, the word terrorist we're talking about, that he has it
ingrained in him from the propaganda, from the military training and
everything that was going on, that these were terrorists.
Diniz Borges: Do you get the sense that, you know, in retrospect, you
know, now that he's of course been here a great big part of his life?
Um, and, and you get the sense that because your grandmother was a
teacher, and so her, her role was very different than his, uh, in the
aspect that she was educating young Guineans to, you know, to, to be
able to read and write and, and, and, and, think for themselves,
because that's what people do when people know how to do this. And so,
um, I mean, she could possibly, you know, theoretically be training
future quote unquote “terrorists” or freedom fighters, obviously that
she was, uh, I'm sure some of the children that she taught as they got
older became freedom fighters. Um, do you think that, um, the role
between both of them, which was quite different? She was not just a
homemaker. In other words, she was not just there, you know, to take
care of your dad, she actually had a profession while she was there

and their profession is basically to uplift people and not say his
profession wasn't, but his profession was quite a bit different. Do
you think that her role may have softened him a little bit, or vice
versa, or do you have any take on it?
Eric Dutra: Yeah, that's a really good question, you know um, just from
stories from, from my dad as well, um as, as another, as another
primary source. Um, my grandfather understood the job he had to do,
and he was able to put himself out of the greater context that, you
know, of all my, my dad would go to the schools that that my Avó would
set up. So, my, my dad was also kind of involved in that um community
building aspect of it as well as being a Portuguese student there with
a bunch of the Guineans and, and building friendships, building bonds
and things along those lines. I'm sure that some, some of my dad's
friends at the time ended up becoming freedom fighters as well. Um but
my, my grandfather understood his duty and he understood what he was
there to do. Um and I, I look at what my grandmother did in the
greater context. In 1959 there was a strike and the Portuguese
government killed about 50, 50 Guinean workers that were considered
non-citizens, so they didn't have the rights that citizens of the, of
the Portuguese regime would, so they wouldn't get workers benefits and
things along those lines. Um I, I look at that and how Salazar
eventually just gave everyone citizenship and I look at the, that
being step one. Step two Spinola’s Better Guinea Program and then my
grandmother, somewhere along the way, getting brought in there. There
was definitely a humanitarian outreach that that was being done
through Spinola and, and the Portuguese, and the Portuguese in Guinea,
there was also that war aspect and I think that my, my grandmother was
a very good yin to my grandfather's yang, and they were really just, I
think that that made them same in the context of supporting Portugal,
but different in the means of getting there. And I will say that my,
my grandmother from, from the stories that I remember from her saying
she loved everyone in in Guinea, she there was not a hate bone in her
body. She, she loved everyone, that she loved all of her students. And
it was kind of like a killing, killing with kindness. We're going to
show the best of Portugal through my grandmother, and we'll show the
bloodier side of Portugal through my grandfather.
Diniz Borges: There's a there's a part there when you transition and
you talk to continue to talk about the family, uh and your and your
grandfather's experiences And you say, and I'm going to quote your,
your writing uh when you because you quote your grandfather there, you
know, Guinea was for them, not for us, we have Portugal and you say,
um Avô supported African independence, but because of loyalty to the
army and loyalty to the dictator, who was in support of the colonies
on top of the ministers who were getting rich off of going to uh
Guinea and other countries, he and his friends fought. So, after two
campaigns, however, he was not going back for a third. So, he does

from your conversations with him, although he was there, he did his
job, he did two tours, but he believed in, although he called them
terrorists, but he did believe in his in their cause, because he
didn't want to stay and fight for Portugal. He decided to it was
becoming too, you know your quote there at the end is he's uh, Avô
supported African independence. So did that have a little bit to do
with why maybe, you know, not just of course the war aspect, that
would make anybody think twice, but you know, also the philosophical
aspect of it, you know. Hey, you know, these people do believe in, you
think at that time he made a conscientious decision, or did you make
it more is it something he grew into after he came into America
continued of course because he was a learned man, he continued to read
and write?
Eric Dutra: That's a really good question. Um I really think that, and
this might just me being seeing the best of my grandfather. Um I
really think that he understood that Guinea was for the Guineans and
Portugal was for the Portuguese and I and when, when I lead up to the
Carnation Revolution, I talked a lot about that that was kind of the
mood in the army at the time before the coup. My, my grandfather
talked about how there were talks of coups since 1959 and how people
just really did not want to be in guinea because they saw that all
these other countries were gaining independence and they began to see
that each, each colony deserves their own sovereignty. Um so I, I
really think that that Avô saw the bloodiness of the war, saw that it
wasn't a quote unquote, “just war” on the Portuguese side to fight in.
And that really led to him leaving Portugal and coming to America. Um,
so that he didn't have to go back. And I think that it was very
admirable of him because I, I feel like and, and he talks about this,
that he wishes he was there in Portugal for the revolution to be with
his friends, to see Portugal become free from, from a regime from an
oppressive regime um, that forced him that forced him into a second, a
second tour and all of his friends in the 2nd and 3rd tours. I, I
really think that it was, it was not just him seeing the bloodiness of
the war, it was him wanting Guinea to be free and wanting Angola to be
free and wanting Mozambique to be, to be free as a, as a people and as
a nation.
Diniz Borges: Indeed, because you mentioned something right when we
begin our conversation, Eric uh, talking about your Avô, you
mentioned, you know how he liked the mechanic, mechanical aspects and
how he liked what we call today, you know, technology, how you'd like
to, you know, take things apart and put things together and he, how he
wanted to learn more, than the tools that were given to him in the
Azores. So, it seems like it didn't go to the, uh I think you make
that kind of clear also, it's not like he went to the army as a
married man, as a, as a, as a volunteer, as a professional as he calls
it. And it was um, he didn't go into the army because he believed in

this system of the Colonial Wars. It was an opportunity for a better
living that indeed it didn't even and, and, and people should be aware
that my own. And let me just preface this before your thoughts on that
Eric from your talk and your research with him as well. Um, and
talking to him is that my own father, we immigrated 1968. My own
father tried twice to go to Angola. Twice and he was rejected. Okay,
so he tried twice to go to, to Angola because he wanted to get a
better opportunity. Now he wasn't gonna go as a soldier, he was going
to go as a civilian. He had a driver's, you know, he had a heavy duty,
heavy equipment operating driver's license and so he could drive heavy
equipment operator heavy equipment. Uh and he could also operate not
just those, but also you know, buses. So, he was a professional
driver. And so, he had that license and when he got that license the
idea, you know, was to make a better living in the Azores. But that
didn't happen like he wanted to, so he wanted to go to Angola.
Although Angola was with the war. And I recall asking him, you know,
later on in life, you know, why would you want to go to Angola, you
know, and I learned about the war and everything else a little bit
more. And he said it was just an opportunity. I felt not, maybe not
everywhere is going to be war and I was just, you know, an opportunity
to get out of the islands and to do better for myself and for my, my
family, my grand my dad. Just for historical purposes. My dad didn't
go because he had a little bit of a scrimmage with Salazar regime
because he was listening to a radio station he shouldn’t be listening
to. Um and uh and so but very minor thing you know but in um he didn't
end up going. So, my thought and my question to you is that your
grandfather seemed to he went as an economic opportunity.
Eric Dutra: Yeah. Yeah. It's not just an economic opportunity. I think
that it was an opportunity to explore. Um I think that um yeah from
conversations my grandfather and my dad and really everyone in my, my
family um and just people I know I there is a innate longing to
explore things and joining the army, going to the mainland. Something
that was privileged for people in the Azores to do, uh, to go to
Lisbon and to go to the mainland. That, that was a very privileged
thing to do at the time. And that, that was a very big driving force
is he wanted to see the capital, he wanted to become a mechanic and he
wanted to make a better life for himself. I think that it's a threepronged approach to why my grandfather ended up joining the army and
wanting to eventually get out of the army because he had a longing to
explore a new place and he feels like he got his need, he got his uh,
for lack of better term fix of exploration and Portugal.
Diniz Borges: Indeed. Um, I wanted to transition a little bit to your
father. You talked a little bit about him in the paper as well. Um, he
came as a young man, um, from you know, of course, lived in, in Guinea
had the experience as a, as a young child. Um, and I, you have this
and I'm going to quote your, what you wrote, uh, again, um, as a

child, moving to a war zone, my father was taught how to defend
himself and became very independent person at a young age and was
taught the ideals of anti-racism and equality through his experiences
in Africa very quickly. Elaborate a little bit on that. How did you
come to that conclusion?
Eric Dutra: Yeah. Well, you know, me, first off, my dad is one of my
biggest supporters and one of my biggest heroes. I, I adore him, and I
really think that being a colonizer in a colonized colony for, I
guess, um, you learn a lot about yourself and I can't speak a lot for
him, but being the only one of maybe two or the only white person in
an all-black school. It taught him very quickly that racism wasn't a
real thing because everyone was equally smart, everyone was equally
able to do things and equally, equally curious. And that's the biggest
thing that, that I think that my, my dad was a very curious child. He
wanted to know a lot of things, wanted to be exposed to different
things, it seems. Like I know he had a pet monkey while in Africa, so
he was very much a curious person. Um and I think that that experience
in Africa really helped shape him as a human being because he believed
in those things. He, some of his best friends and all of his friends
in Guinea were black and he didn't see himself as a white person in a
black area. He just saw himself as a person living in a different
country. He understood the situation that he was in with being the son
of a sergeant in the army, fighting these probably some of these kids’
parents but did stop him from being friends with everyone and
immersing himself in that, in that culture. Um, I also think that my
dad very much prescribed to the idea that and, and we talked about
this because I and that was one of the things that really shocked me
that I should have mentioned. There was an anti-racism policy in the
army. They didn't want to be having, having the soldier’s torture
regular citizens because at the end of the day they were there to
protect the citizens so why would they want to attack them? Um, so
there was a relatively anti-racist, I don't want to say throughout the
entire army because obviously there was racist acts done. But there
was a policy that my grandfather spoke about where you couldn't be
racist, you couldn't do things to regular civilians that weren't in
the war. And that really kind of set the tone for my dad and all the
other Portuguese, Portuguese kids that were there um in Guinea and I'm
sure in Angola and Mozambique.
Diniz Borges: Mhm. And let's transition a little bit too. We only have
a few more minutes but let's transition a little bit to the uh to your
again now to you to the secondary sources, the sources that um are not
your family history. Uh and because in your paper then you make the
transition to how the colonization began for Portugal and the, a
little bit about the Carnation Revolution first of all, how, how did
you see that Carnation Revolution It's one of those things that, you
know, most Portuguese you know, you and you when you introduce

yourself, you talked a little bit about the festas, you know being
from Southern California, of course Artesia is paramount and some of
the other areas as well Chino a little bit more inward from, from uh
the L. A. Area. But I would venture to say if we talked to a lot of
young people today um in their twenties or thirties, uh they unless
there are history buffs, even if they're not historians from a formal
aspect, very few of them know because in the in and lots of uh
communities and lots of homes in our communities, we don't talk about
the Carnation Revolution. And I, I encountered that when I was
teaching at high school uh you know, I would ask my students and a lot
of them said, I've never heard of it. Uh course you have probably
heard of it at home. It wasn't news to you when you started reading
and studying history because of your grandfather's experience and your
dad's experience there. But what, tell me a little bit about your,
your perspective on the Carnation Revolution and what you have found
through your research uh, that brought in also to the family aspect?
Eric Dutra: Yeah, the um, so my mom of my dad and my grandfather and my
entire family, they were not in Portugal for the revolution. The
revolution happened in ‘74 and if I remember correctly, they came to
America in ‘71. Um, so they weren't here. They saw it from afar. Um,
and I'm obviously I wasn't alive at the time, but I feel like I was
able to see the Carnation Revolution from afar as well through my own
lens. And as a historian that that is fascinated with the Cold War,
Marxism and things along those lines, I am very prone to bloody
revolutions and the Carnation Revolution is one of the only bloodless
revolutions in the history of the world. It's very rare historian gets
to say history of the world. Um, but in this case where I'm able to
say that I'm really proud of that, I believe that um one of the quotes
I have in, in my, in my paper talks about it being a romantic
revolution and listening to the and reading the stories of how the
revolution happened and how this lady went ahead and put roses in all
of the rifles of the soldiers that we're going to go take over the
capital.
Diniz Borges: the carnations yes, uh huh.
Eric Dutra: Yes, yeah carnations. And it was just really fascinating
for me to watch, for me to process, for me to kind of watch as I go
from point A to point B um, Caetano first, first Salazar leaves and
it's Caetano and then Spinola eventually takes over. And then the, all
the fashions that were in between, uh, in between how we got to our
end, it was just super interesting for me to understand and then to
know that my grandfather, one of things he was really adamant about is
that he part of him wishes that he was there to be with his, to be
with his friends and comrades to take, to take back Portugal for the
people. Um, but he understood and a big theme in my and my family is
duty. He had a duty to be a father and he had a duty to be to become
an American citizen and he knew that Portugal wasn't for him anymore.

America was for him and his family. Um so the revolution had a really
deep impact on me just on the fact that it was bloodless, and I'm not
used to reading about a revolution being bloodless and, and being
romantic in a sense.
Diniz Borges: And so, um uh when he of course his decision to come to
America not to do a third uh tour of duty in Guinea. Um what was this
feeling about? And you talk a little bit about that in your paper in
the last couple of pages. Um what was his, what was his feeling and
what has he communicated to you and your father as well because he was
younger but that's a little bit different. How was he, how does he
talk about his adaptation to America? Did you ever talk about that was
an easy process? The did he I, I mean I, you have some writing here
where you know say that he was, that he liked it, you know, that he
was, you know, it became an American and proud of, of what he does
here and his life here. But did he tell you a little bit about that,
that process you know?
Eric Dutra: Uh, yeah. So, I, I, he didn't tell me when, when me and my
dad talked, he talked about the family experience. So, so my dad came
to America before Avô, Avó and Uncle Reuben. Um, he was able to quote
unquote He had his own struggles, obviously not, not knowing how to
say where's the bathroom on his first day of class and things along
those lines. And I think, I think that their experience really
summarizes the immigrants’ experience as an immigrant in America. Um,
that speaks a different language. They were up at night after work
learning the English language. Uh, dad would quiz them. I vividly
remember that that my, that my grandfather said that one of the
proudest days of his life was becoming an American citizen. And that
same with my dad, same with my grandmother, same with my uncle um,
and, and seeing how they've assimilated to American way of life while
still having their roots in Portugal and through the hall through all
the other mediums that my, my grandfather wrote for the Portuguese
newspaper for, I don't even know how long he.
Diniz Borges: Probably 30 years, probably 30 years I would say.
Eric Dutra: Yeah. And just seeing that they were proud Americans but
still able were able to keep their roots in Portugal, able to keep
their roots and not Portugal but in, in the Portuguese culture, being
able to have uh, go have sopas and alcatra uh and bacalhau a couple on
Christmas Eve only. Um and doing all, all that stuff, they really are
proud to be an American but and they had their struggles getting to be
where they are today, but they always had that Portuguese in them, and
I don't think that will ever leave any of us. Um I'm very lucky, my
girlfriend is also Portuguese. Um so I'm really excited that when I
have kids, I'll be able to take them to the Portuguese hall and have
sopas, go watch Portugal beat Spain, do everything that that a good
Portuguese American does.

Diniz Borges: uh okay from the, learning this history of your, of your
grandfather but also learning the, the second hand in the scholarly
work that you had to read in order to write your paper and of course
you know another in your other courses as well, do you feel, how did
it as a Portuguese American still very proud of, you know, Portugal
beating Spain and, and, and, and, and Portugal beating England. That
never happens. It seems like, but you know, in the, the idea that
getting aside the idea that of course um how has learning quite a bit
more of the history of Portugal, colonization, decolonization uh from
Vasco da Gama, uh the age of exploration, to colonization to
decolonization, to the uh to the Carnation Revolution uh to the
intricacies of Salazar and Caetano. Um and so how do how do you feel,
what kind of sense has that given you as a Portuguese American in your
case First generation born here because your dad was although very
young but was still an immigrant. Um how, how, how did that give you,
how does it make you feel as a Portuguese to learn some of these
things, you know some of these things that are great but some things
that are not so great uh you know from uh from that aspect, what does
that give you? And now not basically as a historian but as, as a
Portuguese American as a human being uh with within that culture.
Eric Dutra: Yeah, that's, that's, the, that's a really good question.
I, I really um I, I wear my Portuguese heritage very proudly, um as a
historian, one of the first things that that we were taught as
historians was too be critical of history but do not judge it. So.
Take in all the facts take in everything, there's no one side is right
in history. You have to get everything in history to understand it but
never really you can say it's good, bad whatever you want to say, but
always just look at it as a historical event and then look at is what
happened next. Every, everything in history, as I said before, is
cause and effect. Everything that we do is, has historical
implications to it. So, when I look at my, my family history, the
overall history of Portugal, I'm honestly, I'm, I'm very prideful of
our history even the bad parts of it, because I know what happens
after it. I know that we have a rev, that there's a revolution to
fight against colonization. The one of the heart, one of the main
reasons that the revolution happened was because people were tired of
being in Africa and that's something that I'm very proud of um, and
just overall history in general, I'm very, I'm very much an optimist
when it comes to just analyzing history in general. I'm very proud of
the history of the world. Of course, there's mistakes that are made of
course there are things that we have to work on it and atone for. But
overall, the history of the world is, is a one of progress. One of
good one of one of good nature and one of people caring about other
people. And we can summarize I, I think that you can summarize the
human condition through the Carnation Revolution and how people just
want to support people support themselves and make it and make life
quote unquote “better” for the greater community. And that's really at

the heart of history. And I'm very proud of the history that my
grandfather has, very proud of the history that that our nation has
and Portugal and the U. S. And I very much think that when we come to
an understanding of history like that, we build a more progressive
future and that's how I look at it.
Diniz Borges: And that's a wonderful way to end it. I have promised you
about 55 minutes or so. We went over a little bit but it's fascinating
um thank you so much. Um and again congratulations on the wonderful
essay. Congratulations on a wonderful project. And uh we uh we are, it
is wonderful to see young Portuguese Americans discover this sense
because I think that um and when I was asking in a sense and you
answer it very, very well which is I think sometimes Portuguese
Americans are proud of being Portuguese. And but when you ask why uh
you know I mean there's always of course the sense yeah because you
know my family, my, my, my, my Avô my Avó my, my Primos, my Primas my
Tios, my Tias, my Mãe and Pai, all of these people have instilled in
me this pride of you know the festa and the sopas and, and, and, and,
and the sameritana to and the band's et cetera, but then there's a
little bit more to uh history of a people than that. And so, it is
wonderful that young Portuguese Americans have the opportunity in an
American university as such as yourself to study history and to have
that niche of the history of the Portuguese, because I think that as
you just pointed out it makes you know a little bit more of why you're
proud and what you're proud of. So, history. So, do you think that it
kind of helps you be a little bit more informed as the Portuguese
American of the history of your of your ancestors?
Eric Dutra: Oh 100%. I, I um you know I, I got to talk to my
grandfather as a historian and it was very real to me, it was very
much one of those things where like wow, this guy did X, Y and Z and
he did it because of this. And especially because of the fact that my
grandfather did not want to be, believed in Guinea for Guinea,
Portugal for Portugal that really made me very proud um especially
because one of the big jokes that my professor has like, oh so you're
the family of colonizers. And, and at first, I was like well yeah, but
at the end of it was like, well yeah, I am and although we were
colonizers, we still believed at the end and we came to the conclusion
that colonization isn't the way to go and I'm very proud of that. I
think that um it's a history, my, my, my grandfather's history and one
of the things that that I've talked about with people at the hall and
through other Portuguese events is that this history is not being told
anymore and where and the people that fought in Guinea, fought in
Monzambique, and fought in Angola, they're not getting any younger and
it's really important that we start to document these histories,
because it's so important to our culture and to our people that we get
the history of everyone and we don't just get okay there was Salazar
and then revolution and that everyone came to America. It can't be

that we have to get everything in between so we could be, get a full
understanding and a full pride in being Portuguese.
Diniz Borges: Indeed. Well, thank you Eric uh best of luck to you and
uh continue hopefully you'll continue studying history and doing some
work with it. We'll see where it takes you uh and thank you for taking
this last hour and 10 minutes with us. And uh again the Portuguese
American community is should and is I'm sure very, very proud of your
work as a historian. Very, very proud of your work tying in the family
history, the oral parts of history with the history that's in the
history books and bringing it all together. So again, thank you so
much. Appreciate it. Um and uh my best to you and uh and, and of
course your connection to Fresno is uh the Central valley as well as
your into your girlfriend and uh and to your parents and your grand,
and your grandfather who I've known for a very long time and, and
admire as a person. Uh and so thank you. Uh thanks to all of you who
is, who are following us. Thanks to the some of the nice comments.
Very enjoyable Eric as an academic it's always wonderful to see young
scholars keep up the good work that is really outstanding academic
yourself. And so thank, thank you again, Eric thanks to all of you for
joining us. And uh, again, the Portuguese Beyond Boards Institute is
here for the Portuguese American experience and the Portuguese legacy
in the state of California. Take care everyone. Good night.