Portuguese Beyond Borders Institute Collection

Tony Goulart Interview

Goulart, Tony

Borges, Diniz

ENG

Portuguese Beyond Borders Institute

3/5/2022

SCUAD_pbbi_00059

Diniz Borges: Portuguese Beyond Borders Institute events as far as our
oral history program. So, we have got literally now hundreds of hours
recorded and we're putting them up on our library archive a few at a
time. We have about 55, 55 so far in our archives. And this
conversation is certainly is one that's going to be in our archive as
well, transcribed and for future generations. Our guest is Tony
Goulart, who does not need an introduction. I know that that's a lazy
way of, of, of someone who is moderating a panel to say because then
they don't feel they have no responsibility as far as saying some
things about the guests. But Tony is widely known in the Portuguese
American community. I'm gonna ask him to tell us a little bit about
himself and his immigration to um, California from the island of Pico
and other islands where he's lived in the Azores as well. And his
trajectory over to America. Um, he's been the key figure in the
Portuguese American community of the Bay Area, has been involved in
many organizations. Has done conferences for the Luso American
Education Foundation, was one of the key figures in creating the
Portuguese Chamber of Commerce of Silicon Valley in California. Um, of
course, and our topic for the conversation today, the Portuguese
Heritage Publications of California and the publishing and archiving
of the Portuguese American experience in this state uh, that of
course, uh, the, the soul and, and, and the thriving force behind it
has been always Tony Goulart along with a couple of the folks as well
Jose Rodrigues amongst others. And, and also, he's been involved in
many other community projects that [inaudible] was I believe him and,
and the late [inaudible] were the first to be elected before the
count. Before then it was kind of a community event that the community
organizations elected but they ran a campaign where, where it was, it
was I believe to this day to the most successful and, and, and he's
smiling but it was the most successful Portuguese, Portuguese
political campaign, although not partisan political campaign because
there were literally, I think thousands of votes or, or in the high
hundreds anyway in theTony Goulart: High hundreds.
Diniz Borges: In the high hundreds compared to some of the other ones
who lately I think people have been elected with seven votes or nine
votes or eleven. Um, so Tony. Um, thanks so much for taking the time
as we commemorate Portuguese immigrant week and more important as we
also archive our Portuguese American experience in California. A
little bit about your trajectory from Pico to, to America.
Tony Goulart: Well, first of all, thank you for the invitation and it's
a pleasure to be part of this uh, struggle to continue to keep our um
Portuguese community and its memories alive. Um, my trajectory started
with when I was born in Pico and uh what I call the capital of Pico,
São Caetano. It was the last village to have running water and
electricity in Pico. That's why I call it the capital, it's between

two um districts, the Lajes and Madalena and because we don't belong
to almost anyone, we stay in the middle of the mountains in the little
bay, a beautiful bay. And so, I was born in the early fifties and
attended after elementary school, I attended the seminary in Ponta
Delgada for five years and then in Angra for four. But at which time I
realized that probably my call had been kind of forcefully impregnated
in my mind rather than a clear choice. And since my family lived in
the, in the United States, more particularly in California, they had
immigrated. Um, funny enough and I will interject a little interesting
story that in order for me to stay in the seminary and my family
because all the siblings were all minor to immigrate as a unit, I had
to be um proven not to be part of the family. So, my father was a
[inaudible], and engaged into this false document that I wasn't a
legitimate son of the family. And so, with all that and with God in
mind and the priesthoods and the horizon I stayed back and my siblings
moved on to California five years before I did. When I joined them
later on in 1974 um, since um I wasn't able to accomplish what I had
set out to, which would be to, to go into some kind of some kind of an
educational course which had been my, my previous years of occupation.
Um I always ran out of money. I registered for a computer programming
class that I had to pay every two weeks about 60% through the course.
I ran out of money, and I had to drop out. The teachers were very
upset with, with my decision, but it was determined by exactly that,
that, that's financial situation. Um then I tried getting into San
Jose State. Of course, I had immigrated on a visitor's visa and uh to
attend San Jose State I would have to improve my English skills which
are still a little um poor after all these years. But I registered for
a school um at, at the suggestion of father [inaudible], a who had
attended that same school when he first arrived in the United States
and the teacher was Valley Alvarez [phonetic spelling], a Greek
teacher with a very heavy accent, but that could prepare instantly
almost uh her students to take the TOEFL test. I did and passed it
with flying colors thanks to her. Um and so I immediately thought of
the taking some classes at San Jose State. I went and registered with
a full load 18 units, and I was informed that each one of the units
would cost approximately $350 for resident, and 750 for foreign
students, which was my classification. So, I couldn't afford it. I
attended San Jose State for about two months or 2.5 months until I was
able to withdraw, so that would not impact my 4, 4.0 average that I
had been transferred from the Azores and um it was that frustrating
feeling of not having a possibility to continue studying here in the
United States. And so, one day my brothers who worked in construction
uh came home and, and said that the company was hiring a couple of
people uh and uh but they were not by any stretch of imagination and
suggesting that I would take that on. And, but I said uh do you think
I could uh I could do the job and I could uh I could be one of the
candidates. They said wow you've been studying all your life, what do
you know about construction, that's heavy work and all that, you'll

never make it and so forth. But I said well I'm sick and tired of
running out of money, I need the money. And wages were union wages at
that time were very enticing. So, I worked with my brother for West
Coast Drywall in Hayward for 3.5 years until we established ourselves
in uh with our own operation which lasted 33 years uh in partnership
with my, my older one of my older brothers.
Diniz Borges: Um but it's good to say that meanwhile as you had your
own company in a very successful one, um you also went back to
education you have your bachelor's and your master's.
Tony Goulart: Yes and before, when we were a little bit more
comfortable financially in the business, I always had this dream of
completing because I, I had never finished my Bachelor's degree so I
went and registered at USF and completed my bachelor's and I was so
enthusiastic about it that the week after I graduated from the
Bachelors, I registered on the Master's program, so I completed um
with a little interruption which was caused by family issues um and uh
life decisions I ended up only completing my masters at the beautiful
age of 47 years old when I was I think in 1996 I believe. And uh but I
accomplished that not for a lot of promotions at work because that
would not impact my situation, but I felt that I had to do it
especially as an inspiration for my two children, um that I have from
my first marriage, the second marriage we have two children that are
not blood children but we treat each other like if we were and I love
that relationship and so uh my master’s, my master's project was um
focused on the establishment of a Portuguese Chamber of Commerce. I
had known that back in the 19, 1905 before the San Francisco
earthquake, there had been um a Portuguese Chamber of Commerce located
in San Francisco but that was short lived, I would think mainly
because of the consequences of the earthquake. Um and that disbanded,
but I thought that we had the Portuguese community throughout the
state at such a huge um, um place and had taken such a, a major
contributing, had been such a major contributing factor to the history
of this, this state. And people were fairly, I would say to the
majority referring to the majority of our people they were fairly
successful, financially successful and I thought, well we probably
never took advantage of that um financial status in order to, to have
our voices heard. And so, my project was, was based on working on the
concept of creating a Portuguese Chamber of Commerce which came to
fruition in 1981, 1991 and lasted about 13 years, even though only the
first seven or eight, I was more directly and more deep. [audio
interrupts] I kicked out on the eighth year. Uh no, it was on the 10th
year that I was kicked out and made an honorary president so that I
would not have a voting at a voting um uh presence and uh it was
exactly at that time, the 10th anniversary of the Chamber because the
Chamber was originally established as Portuguese Chamber of Commerce
of Silicon Valley or of uh of Santa Clara County, that there was this
intention of expanding it throughout California because some of the

heavyweights, financial heavyweights of our community were scattered
throughout the state and we wanted also to expand the concept to other
areas of, of the, of the state. Um and that was when another little
project showed up in the horizons and we thought, well how can we
introduce the concept to the other communities without a business
card, for example, to break the ice and to say what, what are we
about. And so, we thought of celebrating the 10th anniversary of the
chamber with the publication of what would that have been probably a
100-page booklet about the Holy Ghost celebrations in California,
which would be our introduction to the rest of the state and there
would have been um, the compilation of what the, what our common
history uh, on the religious-social aspect was. And so, we started
working on that, then the organized research groups by geographical
areas and uh, the project just embellished to a point that we ended up
um publishing a 500-page book. Um, it's probably poor in quality as
far as the, the content but it is an inventory…
Diniz Borges: Yes, go ahead an inventory. You were saying it's an
inventory of,
Tony Goulart: of major um aspect of our, of our presence here in
California. So that, that was such a beautiful beautifully interesting
project by involving over 200 people that with more or less skills um,
uh, contributed as writers to the, to the project and also from a
financial standpoint.
Diniz Borges: Yes, but for those who have never seen it, this is not a
small book. Okay, this is not the 100 pages that Tony.
Tony Goulart: Like Diniz used to, like Diniz used to jokingly mentioned
that we sold culture by the, by the kilo.
Diniz Borges: But it's but it's true, it is by the pound because it's,
it weights hard, but it's, a it's a beautiful book. It's a beautiful
book.
Tony Goulart: The idea behind it is I remember very vividly when I
first arrived in the United States that my parents just like so many
other folks that I visited their homes, and this is not a criticism,
it's just a reality, a reality fact of reality that most of them had
the yellow pages book at home and probably no other book, uh maybe a
little handwritten telephone directory of their own. But there were
not many books present in uh and when I look in the uh in your
background and see the bookshelf behind you, I didn't, that was not my
experience when I arrived here in the in the seventies.
Diniz Borges: It wasn’t mine either in the beginning.
Tony Goulart: It would even be a little souvenir book on top of, a of a
table. So, I remember talking to Alan [inaudible] and, and, uh and
discussing this and wondering whether people are going to read it or

people were going to be interested and, and basically saying if they
don't care for it, at least it will be a nice decorating piece for
their coffee tables in their living rooms. He was deeply insulted
with, with the concept. But that was also one of the ideas behind it
is that people would replace that yellow pages book with something of
their own history on their own history.
Diniz Borges: Literally you had 100, you had dozens of people
collaborate with you on that project.
Tony Goulart: Yeah, we had over 200 people that contributed with
writing and doing some research. Some of them just facilitated the
research and visited the different areas and I think we did the
complete on the first edition, we missed one Holy Ghost celebration uh
in Southern California. Um I believe that north of Oxnard, Oxnard, I
believe that we missed that. And then when we went for the second
edition, we included that, that one that we had unwillingly missed,
but the support that we received for that project was just phenomenal
even though we had uh, tempo das vacas gordas, uh at the time of the
fat cows uh and finances that the communities were looked upon with,
with a different with a different set of eyes. [inaudible] through my
friend uh [inaudible] Marks [inaudible] now at uh Universidad,
Universidad Catholica to um, um supported us with $20,000 which was
matched by FLAD the Luso American Development Foundation with another
20,000. But among the Portuguese community, I remember that after we
had sold 65 sold or distributed because we distributed a lot to public
libraries and, and organizations that at no cost to them. But we had
approximately a little over $100,000 in the bank. This is after all
expenses paid after um having gone through 6500 copies of a book,
which I think short of um of August Vars book is probably the record
for Portuguese books in California. Um and so there were $100,000 but
because we had established this accounting through the Portuguese
Chamber of Commerce as a subcommittee of theirs for the 10th year
anniversary um the chamber ran out of funds and started going to the
funds that had been assigned specifically just to cover the book and
if there was any leftover monies there would be distributed in
scholarships and because there was no funding, so they started going
at it and I flipped and as um not very often, but sometimes I do and
they kicked me out and they tried to keep the money and we were able
to negotiate through our dear friends Susan Rodrigues and Al Dutra and
I'll do too much more patient to with, with this kind of community
endeavors and much more appeasing um to uh split up those proceeds and
start a new organization called Portuguese, Portuguese Heritage
Publications. And then the story goes on. Um we had come across um a
lot of references uh, during our Holy Ghost book preparations, we have
come across Al Graves work and, and it was intriguing that nobody knew
where Al Graves was any longer. If he was still active, if he was
teaching if, because he had done his master’s and PhD about the
Portuguese, Portuguese and agriculture. And so, we, we were able to

track him down. He was a banker, an investment banker in Fresno at the
time and of course not connected to uh the academic world anymore, but
uh he found the idea interesting of publishing his masters and the Ph.
D thesis. And so, we um we met in Los Banos because he figured that if
this was a waste of his time at least he would not come all the way to
San Jose, and we would meet halfway. Being as pragmatic as he is and
sometimes as shrewd as he is, I agreed to it that we met at a coffee
shop in Los Banos and we agreed to proceed with, with this book.
Again, the funding portion of it was, was very generous. People were
very generous and our Al Graves, Al Graves took 10 months off of his
work of his job to re-rework what was previously a thesis an academic
thesis and bring it into a more attractive, more popular concept of
the book presentation. And so that was another significant uh
milestone for Portuguese Heritage Publications, which sold two
editions of the book, 4500 copies. And uh I just wish we had not made
the and not we had that we had not underestimated how popular this
book would become.
Diniz Borges: I recall it was the only time in Tulare that people would
take three and four books at a time I'm not saying that then it's
never happened in the American community. I've been to the book
presentations here as well. But it was the museum was just packed as
you might recall and people, people outside. Um and uh and, and when
we first talked about that with the Sister City Foundation, we
thought, well, you know if we can get, you know, 100 people in there,
that's already a lot. But I mean the thing was packed and people
outside and, and people are actually buying the book and not just one.
Some people would. I was, I was very surprised.
Tony Goulart: It was one of the most amazing book presentations that
we've done. I remember that I even had my slip of the tongue on. I was
so surprised with the turnout, with and the level of people that
showed up the interest of the people that showed up that I started by
saying that I was appalled and that was not the right word. It was
exactly the opposite that that I wanted to convey. But uh my poor
English still uh was not um was not my best friend at that particular
moment. But so, uh, so that then we proceeded uh to, to uh two other
projects and we've heard of we had heard of David Berton who was a
researcher. He was a mailman, but had previously dedicated a lot of
his time, through the inspiration, by inspiration of our dear friend
Marian Diaz to do a research on coastal whaling and, and the
Portuguese involvement in coastal whaling. So, David took 15 years of
his life, basically going through every little coastal town of
California. That even the most remote ones to gather information about
the Portuguese pioneers that first arrived here and did that did not
dedicate themselves to um to farming or to gold exploration but
that's, but the ones that settled in the coastal towns, a lot of them
got involved in shore whaling. Very primitive methods were used at the
time. But David add this research and he had thoroughly searched the

possibility of, of, of publishing it. But nobody wanted to take it on,
because it was a very delicate subject in first place because of the
protection act of the whales. That was still very fresh in people's
minds and also because it only accounted for shore whaling not
American whaling at large, which is a subject dear to a lot more
people. And so, we said, yeah, we'll, we'll take it on. Unfortunately,
the demand for that book was not as high as some of the previous ones.
Uh and we are still trying to sell the book and trying to at this
point because we are in the process of dissolving Portuguese Heritage
Publications, we’re trying to just put it on hands that will care
about the topic and about the presence of the Portuguese in
California. If I may just add this book is so interesting. Uh, not
only because it accounts for 26 whaling stations along the California
coast, not all of them and, and operated by Portuguese, but most were,
and but it has also about 100 page of uh, biographical information
about these pioneers, most of them probably they didn't even know how
to read or write, but he was able to by digging into all kinds of
sources from the census to um, payroll, payroll records to find some
information and see their connection to their roots back in the
Azores.
Diniz Borges: It is indeed, yeah, it's a fascinating book I mean, it's
just really fascinating. It's one of my favorites, to be honest with
you.
Tony Goulart: It is then we went on to do um, during the, the 50th, the
50th anniversary of the volcões Capelinhos. Uh, Dr Alzida Silva was
the Director of Immigration Services of the Azores, suggested that if
we wanted to participate in a project to publish a book about the
impact of the, of the wave of Capelinhos immigration uh, in the United
States. And that's the, that was one of our major research works that
that um, that had contributions from experts in, in the Azores uh,
writers and uh, in the American, they asked for both in the East Coast
and California. And it was also a very interesting project to work in,
and uh, because it's, it basically um, touches upon the second wave of
immigration, what I call the second wave of immigration from the
Azores to the United States. Um, and so during this course of and then
we, we published several other books, one that comes to mind by Maria
Carti, Maria [inaudible] Carti. Um was a graduate from, from Berkeley
about the I. S. I. S centennial. Another one about the 51 centennial,
which was coordinated by Miguel Avila. And um during that period of
time, we also engaged into the publication of other collections,
whether in English or Portuguese that refer the that referred or add
the Portuguese experience in California as the main thrust. And so we
published in the in this period of approximately 20 plus years, about
35 books. Uh the last one was uh. Yeah, since you, you brought that…
Diniz Borges: I just brought this one up Tony because I think that this
book is on, on this, [simultaneous talking] this book has been very

overlooked unfortunately and not by you guys, you guys published but
sometimes by the public. I think it's a, it's a history. And, and if I
wanted just to take it back to the before we, we get to this, the
volcano um the Capelinhos book, you know, one of our and you and I
have talked about this in the past several times, one of our uh
contributions and one of the things that kept the Portuguese American
community and I think the Portuguese language alive, were the radio
programs. If we didn't have the radio programs in the 1960s and ‘70s
especially, because then technologies changes you and I both know in
the late ‘80s. But up until then, if we didn't have the Portuguese
radio programs, if they didn't exist, Portuguese people wouldn't speak
English, I mean Portuguese, most of them would have turned to English
to survive of course, and to know, you know, news and everything else.
Um, and to this date, the Capelinhos book by publishing the work that
was originally researched by Dr. Fernando Silva and I think
[inaudible] worked on it as well. It has one of the best, I would say
one, I would say the best uh, exposition of the history of the
Portuguese radio in California in this book, correct me if I'm wrong.
Tony Goulart: Yeah, in the media. So, there are there are quite a few
interesting areas that were brought into perspective how impactful
this wave of immigration that started in the ‘60s impacted and
regenerated the Portuguese American community in California. So, um,
yeah, and one of one of the other topics uh, that was quite
interesting, and it was also research paid by FLAD, um directly to the
author Alvin Grace, because we could not afford to pay its rights on
the previous books or any other books. We just gave a token of
appreciation after to all the author's research authors, but nothing
compared to what FLAD could contribute and all did a great job and
getting together all the political figures, whether past or current at
the time to summarize their legislative efforts and their legislative
lives. And it's quite a rich, quite a rich history that goes back to
our first immigrants, one from Pico that comes to mind that was
elected toDiniz Borges: John G. Matos, which I just featured him. We're featuring
something all week long calledTony Goulart: John G. Matos in the Pico road…
Diniz Borges: Yes, yes, Christian, Christian, H.G. Christian. I just,
we're using the book on using the book to do something called profiles
in legislative service during this whole week uh, profiling and using
the book as a source because it's a wonderful source. I recall having
a conversation with, with Al about this and, uh, he was just, you know
he said, when he was working on this and I recall him telling me that
I'm gonna have to stick with only the legislature because I mean, if,
if I start digging into municipalities and supervisors and, and, and
county boards of this and county boards of that, I mean, it's gonna

it's a humongous project and thank God that Al took this on. And as I
mentioned today in the talk, I believe you know, and I'd love to find
some Master students who are going into public policy or, you know, in
the political science world because there is a lot to uncover uh, that
Al had began to uncover. But like you said I have to stick to only one
or else it's gonna be like, you know, thousands of pages. But we do
need to do some work uh in the in that level,
Tony Goulart: Yeah, at the county level, at the city level with, with
city council members and school boards. There's uh an important I
mean, an important in the tremendous amount of people that have got
involved and not basically with the banner of being Portuguese, but as
members of the, of the community that accepted us and that we live in
um, but with those roots traced back to their Azorean Portuguese
families.
Diniz Borges: Tony. Can we look at a little bit? So, as you were
talking about, there's um you guys decided to at one point you and,
and, and the team there decided to do different collections. So, we
talked a little bit about the Heritage Collection and, and we're
looking at these here. Uh those of us was follow or following this the
Fiction Collection, Pioneer Collection, and then Décima Ilha
Collection, which is on Coleção Décima Ilha, which of course is in
Portuguese. Um and uh what was the main, the main purpose for dividing
these different collections? What were you trying to achieve with,
with some of this?
Tony Goulart: Well, the all the other collections were mainly authors
that had uh some writings that we thought were worth publishing or
translating in you have you helped us tremendously with the
translation of I No Longer Like Chocolates from Álamo Oliveira and we
thought those were worthwhile stories related to the history of the
presence of the Portuguese in California. But we were being just
instrumental and helping the authors either publishing English or
divulge their, their works. I'm looking at the slide that you just
have with the cow for the Holy Spirit, which is kind of an interesting
rural experience of…
Diniz Borges: Yeah, I like that book a lot.
Tony Goulart: many of our immigrants went through uh which was written
by Rose Silva King, and which had a tremendous success. But it's an
author's edition with the stamp of Portuguese heritage. Of course we
helped designed it. Um, and uh, and put it out on the on the, to the
public eye. But those were mainly authors’ editions the same thing
with A Barrelful of Memories. It was a book that had been published
and, and they had been uh I mean printed the first printing by Pauline
Stonehill and she never marketed it to a point that it was attractive
enough. So, we changed the cover. We reformated the book and it was an

instant success story too the same thing with The Egg in the Water
Glass from Olivia Lage that sold out in in a fairly quick, quick time,
but it was more dependent on the activity of the authors themselves in
the promotion of everywhere in California. And then we had a book that
had been published by Jose Ambridge [assumed spelling] from, from
Rhode Island somewhere. I don't know exactly where, but Rhode Island,
yeah, from Rhode Island just uh is now living in Portugal. But while
he was in um in the United States, he had a little uh publishing
company and…
Diniz Borges: Very, very utopian to say and lost a lot of money on it.
But he just kept on going.
Tony Goulart: But it was interesting. Yeah, I came across this this
little booklet and I saw that the first edition was 250 pages. I mean
250 copies uh to be correct. And I thought wow, what a, what a little
precious uh nugget piece of information uh and only 250 copies. But
Jose was in the East Coast and so he could not really do much with
the, with the promotion of this Portuguese presence in California by
Eduardo Mayon Diaz [assumed spelling]. I still think to this date is
the most concise, the most interesting introduction to the Portuguese
history in California, that one can put their hands on. And so, we, we
printed the first, we did the first printing. It was kind of orange
yellowish cover. And we just started distributing by schools, by bands
by hand during the band festival, annual band festivals, because we
thought it was not a very a very easy reading because Mayon Diaz
divided it up in very small chapters about the main areas of, of
interference of the Portuguese in California. And so, we're still
thinking that we might just on this later phase of our existence of
doing a reprint and just spreading it out. I know that the book
probably needed a little um updating. Especially because this was
written probably, I would suppose in the eighties was first published
in the eighties. I think it was late eighties. And so, it probably is
a little dated. But until then I think it's an interesting it's a very
interesting book. Then we had Coleção Décima Ilha, which was a
collection of books from Portuguese authors, the majority, a lot of
them poets. There's always the Silva, Maria das Dores Beirão,
[inaudible] Oliveiro. Um and we did it mainly because either the,
these people were associated with Portuguese heritage and because they
also represented, represented a slice of our American experience. I
have to mention that our friend Vasco da Costa, we also with your
help. And uh and Katherine's, uh Katherine Baker, we published our
Vasco da Costa’s My Californian Friends, which is very interesting
poems about his experience in the in the is in his uh in his trips to
California. Um so…

Diniz Borges: And I and I recall you're apprehensive, Can I tell a
story I recall you were apprehensive about this publication because
there's a poem about you in it. There's a poem about me and it and it
was kind of, you know, I mean we're going to publish this, and it has
poems about you know, different people. But I mean we just happened to
be two of the subjects I think to be honest with you, it's a great
piece of lit and I think there has one poem in there if I may add Tony
that is a classic and that is Queen Nancy. I think there hasn't been I
think I don't think there hasn't been anything written before or after
in the poets in the poetry world close to that, Queen Nancy.
Tony Goulart: That’s very well put very well observed and with a sense
of humor but also with a sense of respect for a tradition that is
centennial and so yeah that was, that encapsulates some of the other
work that we did. Then uh Irene Blayer and Francisco Cota Fagundes
wanted to do a tribute to Claude Hulet, who for so many years uh put
together a symposium on Portuguese studies at I believe UCLA.
Diniz Borges: Right, right, you’re correct.
Tony Goulart: If I'm not mistaken. And Francisco Cota Fagundes had been
attending some of those seminars and I think he attended UCLA and knew
fairly well Claude Hulet. And so those were attempts to um to
penetrate other areas. We thought that eventually probably the
universities and some of the academia would be, would be a little bit
more interested if we had this mix and, and some of them knew Claude
Hulet and knew Francisco Cato Fagundes and they would be a way to
penetrate, to penetrate in those areas that we were not so familiar
with, especially the academia. Um well those were attempts those were
just ways of trying to…
Diniz Borges: I do have one I do have this I must share, and I just got
it and it says, and I quote, “I'm grateful to Tony Goulart’s
Portuguese Heritage Publication of California for publishing so many
fine books regarding Portugal and the Portuguese American experience,
including Tradições Portuguesas, Portuguese Traditions in honor of
Claude Hulet, that contains one of my essays,” and that's from Dr
David Ross who is following us. And I, thanks David for the nice
comments. Uh and he's always very, very supportive and I think he has
the entire collection of Portuguese heritage publication books at
home.
Tony Goulart: Yeah, yeah. He has been always very supportive. And, and
so the, the experience the other day the other day, someone was asking
me what was the most disappointing experience that you've had since
Portuguese heritage is based basically on a dissolution path at this
point. Um, was it worth? Uh what, what is worth the effort of uh
invested in the time to, to coordinate these, this research and work
on the books designed them and so forth. It was not a disappointment.
It was very gratifying experience just as well as the Portuguese

Chamber of Commerce, but as we were talking off the air a little while
ago everything has its time and its place. And I think it's time for
us to also realize that the energy and the people that pushed us, that
that, that gave us the incentive to, to publish books. I remember
especially the work, the work that Lionel Goulart, the late Lionel
Goulart and his wife did by going to every single nook and cranny in
small cities, taking the books and trying to sell them and trying to
introduce them to different people. We lost those people and, and the
board of the Portuguese Chamber, I mean, the Portuguese, Portuguese
Heritage uh to be corrected um is, is getting older and the energy is
not there anymore. So, it was a fun experience, very, very rewarding.
At the same time, it has come to the time that we, we must just pass
on the baton to somebody else, hopefully to Institute and the Fresno
the Fresno University too.
Diniz Borges: Well, we can only do so much, we can’t do half of what
you did, but Tony a couple of things about, um first of all, um the,
the experience of, of, of, of, of also publishing some of the authors
in Portuguese, that was kind of a utopian in a way, because Portuguese
books unfortunately don't sell well in California. I think the should
we, we might safe to say that that the success of Portuguese Heritage
Publications, California, besides, of course the themes that that they
were chosen was also that the books were published in English, it got
to a wider audience.
Tony Goulart: Oh, definitely, there's no question about it. And I don't
think that we have engaged into this uh this, we would not have
embarked into this adventure was it not with the idea of leaving a
legacy that was more accessible to the future generations, or the ones
that to our, to our children and grandchildren as a reference. To
publish in Portuguese was not ever factor in Portuguese Heritage
Publications as we saw the difficulty I remember Adrian Alston one
time sending me a newspaper clipping if I could translate it for her
because she was researching Joe Costa, a musical conductor that had
established several musical marching bands in California at the turn
of the 20th century. And she couldn't read it anymore. She didn't know
what the subject was, she knew exactly what she was looking for
because it was an article written by Arthuro Avila about his dear
friend that had just passed away was a final tribute on a local
newspaper. She knew what the title was, but she could no longer
understand it. And that's the frustration and that's part of our saga
is that we have we have great works collected by our dear friend late
Carlos Almeida at J. Alfredos [assumed spelling] library. But was
researching it was capable of going through the newspapers and through
the microfilm. That is so hard a work to have compiled and accessible
and now it's almost yeah, a lost cause.
Diniz Borges: Yeah, it's, it's not an easy thing. And sometimes people
say, well maybe there's some students that can do it but in today's

world and as you said, even in in in a few years ago when you were
going to school, you got sick of being broke. You know, to quote you,
you know, and, and I think students education of course is much more
expensive today and students really are looking for a way out. They
don't want to take an extra two years in researching something. That
then there's no way for them to see any money. I mean to survive even,
you know, within that. So, it, it, it's gonna be tough. How do you
look at that future research that you did, and the team did for 20
years?
Tony Goulart: We did that, we did those compilations of those books.
And I think their reference, reference, I was whenever I write in
English and which is not that often, especially if I have to do a
formal presentation, like I will be doing in a couple of weeks at the
Monterey Whale, Whalefest uh 2022 edition uh regarding shore whaling
because David Barton is, is unavailable to, to do the presentation. Um
but I was I was asking my daughter to just check the text that I was
preparing to present at this Whalefest on the on March 20 in Monterey.
And she was reading through it, and she was saying, “oh my gosh,”
because I was talking about Carmelo Cove and the Caramelito Bay and
the crown, the Holy Ghost crown that is at the Carmel Museum and all
these things. And she says I was just there about a month ago at
Carmelito Bay and I didn't know that this has anything to do with
Portuguese history. Um so there's that those references that are gonna
stay published in books, but at the same time a few years ago
Dartmouth University did the digitalization of a lot of newspapers at
the J. Alfredos [assumed spelling] library. I know that they did uh an
extremely important job because now those files are accessible for the
public to search by topic or uh and they are available publicly
available. But Carlos Almeida at the left also another big, big, big
piece of information which is in microfilm. Well, the microfilm, you
have to go through every single page of the newspaper in order to find
the, to find the subject you're looking for. And hopefully because
Portuguese Heritage Publications is a nonprofit organization and they
will have to disburse its funds, which is not a lot, but it is still a
considerable amount by uh by uh we have to split it among the
educational oriented organizations. And that's one of the things that
we might consider is trans, transferring those files into digital
accessible files.
Diniz Borges: I was gonna ask about that. What about, I mean, I think
they're probably mostly with you, I would think, I don't know I'm,
I'm, I'm second guessing here. So, you know, forgive me if I'm totally
wrong. Um but what about all these digital files that you guys have
collected through all this work that's that are published in book. But
I know that you for example when we did our documentary uh the
Portuguese Americans Along the 99 Corridor, Portuguese Heritage
Publications through you uh facilitated quite a few pictures for us
that we've used as you know. Uh and credit of course Portuguese

Heritage Publications of California, uh from the book, the Val Graves
book from the Portuguese, from the agricultural book as I call it. Um
is there a plan for this great archive that you have.
Tony Goulart: We, we have not thought about it, but that's a very good
point. Yeah, it's everything is backed up into an external hard drive
and some of the books that we've published have already because
they've gone out of print. We have changed them into a PDF format,
which is not really the easiest format to follow but it's, it's a
record. And so, we have the Holy Ghost book, we have Al Graves book
and we've had some requests for from time to time to duplicate those
books on the PDF format for people that want to want to research them
those areas. But that would be an extremely easy task to do and just
leave it on four or five CDs copies of CDs of each one of the titles.
And somebody could just, it is something that I'll keep in mind, and
I'll try to, to um…
Diniz Borges: I think, I think, I think it needs to be uh the library,
J. Alfredos [assumed spelling] library or the Portuguese Beyond
Borders Institute is very happy to house it because we're, we're right
now and actually we're doing a little bit different. A good friend of
ours of the institute, Kathy Mendez-Gully still of the Mendez family
from Riverdale that you know of and related to Al Graves still uh
through his wife and everything and so and she's uh she's been
actually doing some research of Portuguese articles and I wanted to
talk to you about this before we go. I know it's been an hour. Um but
she's been doing some research on through the Hanford newspaper, the
Hanford Sentinel, the Lemoore paper, the and those rural papers as
well and we've been, she's been finding fascinating stories that that
these American writers would write about the Portuguese community in
the 1930s and ‘40s you know, Mr. and Mrs. Serpa went to Pico and they
did this and I mean, just fascinating stories of the history and we’re
collecting. I mean, these are all archived obviously by the newspapers
and everything, but a, we're trying to get everything that's
Portuguese related and creating a digital collection at the Library at
Fresno State, that will have this rich story, so people don't have to
go all over the world to try to find it, you know, everything that has
to do with the Portuguese American community and that leaves me, just
go ahead.
Tony Goulart: You gave me a good idea and I promise that that you and
Fresno State will have a copy of all the, all the digital copies of
the books that we've printed so far and I will also make, make a point
that they will also be delivered to uh, to the day for this library
meanwhile and because we are on our last leg, as a matter of fact, I
just picked up 17 cases of books at the, at the storage facility. If
there's an organization in California that might have interest in
getting a case, I'm not talking a unit, I'm talking about a case of 16
books of the Portuguese politicians. Uh, Portuguese California,

politicians from Al Graves or the whalers book. We will be glad to
ship it to them at no cost.
Diniz Borges: That's wonderful. Um, but there is still a lot of
research to be done Tony. I know that of course your team and me
included because I'm in the same age group, we're all getting tired
and, and somehow, we have to find some young people that are willing
to attack, take this on in a different manner. Probably not with the
dedication that you and your team had um, but, but, but some work
still needs to be done for example. Um, you were telling me the other
day off in a, in a conversation about the Portuguese bands that
existed at the turn of the century when sometimes people in the
Portuguese American community think that the Portuguese bands or
something of the posto Capelinhos generation, but they indeed were
not. Uh, these things that we are finding in Portuguese in newspapers
about the Portuguese community tells us a little bit different
community we had that sometimes we are unaware of in the 1930 and ‘40s
and ‘50s before the as you put it. And, and, and, and historically
correct because there's been people saying that there's been three or
four waves of immigration to the United, to California, but I agree
completely with you. There's been two waves and that was you know, the
1800s to 1921 and then that kind of ceased, you know, because of the
act and then the posto Capelinhos, uh, there's a lot of history before
the posto Capelinhos that hasn't been registered right.
Tony Goulart: Yes, definitely. And uh, when um, when my mind strikes me
right, I will probably end up doing the, that inventory of Portuguese
bands in California. Not that it will be a complete type of work
because we are always in the process of discovering other others
especially in uh, the earlier part of last of the last century, when a
lot of Portuguese, a lot of bands, marching bands were established
under fictitious names that are very hard for us to decipher whether
they were Portuguese, whether there were Portuguese or not and I
remember vividly um one band that existed in Gustine another one and
um skips my mind now, the Verdado dos Buhach [assumed spelling]
Diniz Borges: Buhach, Buhach.
Tony Goulart: Buhach, and the Portuguese and the band called the youth
band of Buhach, and I would say 99% of the musicians were Portuguese
and we have the names of all these, these people when they played for
the inaugural of the Church of Buhach? Uh I believe in the 1912. So,
they have, we have pictures and it is a very interesting topic and
there are so many other ones that would be worthwhile researching and
looking into. Um I just, I just, I just don't see a lot of people very
interested in this in these matters that would be a little bit more
encouraging.
Diniz Borges: It's an uphill battle. It's an uphill battle, especially
because of the way education is, but it would be wonderful to have

some Master students doing some work in that field. But uh we're
trying, although it hasn't been easy so far, but we'll see. Tony.
Tony Goulart: But if you have uh music inclined student that at Fresno
state that wants to do this work, complete this work on the marching
bands, I will surrender all the information that I have and all the
pictures that I have. Because really, they are fascinating. I remember
that there was in the 1940s there was a band in Stockton, Portuguese
Band of Stockton. Nobody has ever heard about it. We found in the, in
the Portuguese Hall a picture with all the names of the musicians
identified. So those nuggets are there, there somewhere, but they are
just not fairly and easily accessible to the majority of our people.
Diniz Borges: How many of these nuggets? Because you just mentioned,
how many of these nuggets do you think that some of these
organizations you know, especially the Halls and these ideas, these
[inaudible] that have been around for a hundred plus years. Most of
them are at least a hundred years old now. How many of these nuggets
are there that we really need to, that that are just waiting for
someone to take the time to discover them, because I think that there
are just as you found this one picture, um there are things in the
Halls that probably,
Tony Goulart: There are treasures.
Diniz Borges: uh sometimes people don't even know that.
Tony Goulart: they're there you know that there are true treasures. And
the longer we wait to, to, to take inventory of this information the
harder it's gonna get, because I remember Josiah Hapões a few years
ago um talking about the Sauselito Holy Ghost Hall, which had been
taken over by 2nd and 3rd generation Portuguese Americans. And they
were going to throw away all their records because they were written
in Portuguese. Um yeah.
Diniz Borges: There's, there's lots to be done.
Tony Goulart: There’s a lot to do.
Diniz Borges: So, so, so, so a call to the younger generation those who
are working on because why not? If you're looking at doing a research
project, why not do something in your own identity? And, and obviously
I'm sure that you would be more than happy to serve as kind of a
liaison, giving him a little bit of a background. I would love to; I
need something to tangle up with before I drive my wife crazy.
Diniz Borges: We don't want, we don't want you to do that. Thank you,
Tony, I appreciate it very, very much. Thanks for all your work with
Portuguese Heritage Publications as I said to you and I mean it's no
al, alternativa, but I completely understand. I uh years ago and I
went to a good friend of ours and I say ours because you knew him well

too, which was Father Raul Martin before he retired here from Tulare.
And now he's in, in his hometown of Lisbon, enjoying his retirement,
years as he should. Um Father Martin once told me about, this had to
do with the Portuguese Cultural Center in salary that he founded and
that was part of, as you know, when we did the symposium here and
everything else, he once told me as we were discussing right before he
left, uh right before he retired. Uh a few of the things with, in
relationship to the Portuguese American community, he says, and I'm
going to kind of say it in English obviously for those who are
following us, he said “Diniz, it's best to, to kill something than to
let it linger on in its deathbed for years and years and years. So, if
you ever see an organization that you belong to that there's, you
know, some dilemmas or something. It's better to do that.” So, you
know there is, he might be right, I mean he might be right with, there
are, you know, this is not of course specific to Portuguese
Publications California, but specific to a lot of our organizations
that exist throughout California that are just kind of lingering on
and lingering on and lingering on. Do we really, that's just something
that I that I struggle with. Are we doing ourselves in the community
and the future any good by just lingering this on, you know?
Tony Goulart: This the service and the and basically just draining the
energy and, and the support by supporting something that does not no
longer has legs to run. Um, but we are attached and some people for
one reason or another, they just rather devote themselves to something
that meant a lot to them in the past rather than looking forward and
uh like your Bruma publishing at, at Fresno state now, which I, I hope
that it will be a viable continuation of Portuguese Heritage and just
take on this role that we no longer feel it's feasible with the people
that we have around us. I remember a few years ago um very interesting
personality of our community that came to one of our meetings with
this suggestion that we were going to sell a lot more books if we
turned over, it was a youth group led by um one of our references in
this community is of the last couple of a couple of decades and he
says, well give me some money and I'll advertise it on face on
Facebook and on, on, on social media and I promise that in about a
month you will have 5000 likes. Um, well 5000 likes don't didn't sell
me any books.
Diniz Borges: Sure, sure.
Tony Goulart: Um, so we are also living in a, at a different time where
people are not so fond of purchasing a book or the majority of people,
they rather circumvent that and go to quick quicker search on, on
Google and find the information that they need. But it's not the same
thing, for most of us.
Diniz Borges: No, it's not and, and one of the things that um as we
continued to is, you know, this Portuguese Immigrant Week in

California, I mean of course it has, you know, has its ups and downs
and Carlos Almeida uh you know worked tirelessly for this event. I, I
remember when I was a teenager and, and it's um, we, we, I would love
to see and maybe it's something that in the last phase of Portuguese
Heritage Publications we could do, which is, I would love to see a
didactic, you know, a curriculum packet that we could give to
elementary and to secondary teachers and say listen during multi
during Portuguese Immigrant Week in California, which is this and this
um, here it is, you know, here's a didactic packet that you have like
three lesson plans. We have so many folks as you know with, with in
your own family in education so many Portuguese Americans that have
gone into education and so if we could get some of these folks
together with the new technologies and create a packet that people
could say, here it is, you know, in a, here's a capsule of the
Portuguese presence in California from the festas to the dairy
industry, to the agriculture to the whaling. Um and it could be done,
I think that most teachers would welcome that and it's the only way
that we're going to get ourselves presence as you have done with the
book. [inaudible]. It's the only way we're gonna get ourselves
presence in the, in the American mainstream and survive, which is
through education. To have something that teachers can use and teach
whether the kids are Asian American or African American or Hispanic
American, we all learn about those cultures in multicultural weeks and
we need, we don't have enough for the Port, the Portuguese. But there
are enough materials I say, I always say at some, some of my
colleagues we can start a Portuguese ethnic studies course because
thanks to Portuguese Heritage Publications, there are enough materials
now out there and you know this for a fact only 20 years ago, there
were very, you know if you wanted to do a course on the Portuguese
presence in California, there was nothing published or very few. I
shouldn’t say nothing, very few.
Tony Goulart: Yeah, you had August Vaj [assumed spelling] and other
ones but yeah. But all this and just to sum it up, I would say, we
have to also realize that it takes a village to, to carry this out and
as long as we just operate in the mode of letting somebody burn out
completely, um, uh, and I think we see that we see that with the
Portuguese, uh, Portuguese at San Jose High. We saw you on the verge
also of getting tired and isolated, uh, being always on the call to,
to run with…
Diniz Borges: One-man shows are getting old.
Tony Goulart: They're getting old and then they don't have the
continue, the continuity that we wish they did. And that, that, that's
the travesty of most of our um, community enterprises is that they are
based on somebody and not on a cause. And uh, hopefully some more of
our youngsters will take interest on not so much devoting so much time
and energy like you and so many others have done, but take a little

bite, take a little bite of and a little slice of this major
enterprise that we all believed that, believed in at one point or
another.
Diniz Borges: Tony, thank you so much for all that you've done, and
you'll continue to do. And uh, and I'm going to see if I can entice
some students to get a hold of you to keep you busy, just because it's
not, it's not because you need to be busy. It's just, I don't want
your wife to go crazy.
Tony Goulart: Yeah, hahaha.
Diniz Borges: Thank you so much. Take care.
Tony Goulart: Thank you, thank you for the opportunity to…
Diniz Borges: Thank you.
Tony Goulart: …to do this exchange with you.
Diniz Borges: I appreciate it. Thank you.