Japanese Americans · Debbie Ikeda interview

Debbie Ikeda interview

Item

Title

eng Debbie Ikeda interview

Description

eng Debbie Ikeda talks about her family and educational background, the Valley's educational needs, how her grandfather immigrated to the United States, settling in Santa Monica and starting a nursery. She talks about how her family was sent to the Manzanar War Relocation Center, the photographer Toyo Miyatake, and Mexican American Ralph Lazzo who decided to accompany his friend to Manzanar. She talks about how her husband, Dale Ikeda's family was sent to the Fresno Assembly Center and then the Jerome War Relocation Center, how three of her uncles joined the 442nd and were wounded in action, her family leaving camp and moving to Chicago and her being born there. She discusses her college education and the Vietnam War protests. She discusses her early career in education, her joining the JACL and meeting her husband through that organization and raising a family in the Fresno area and the benefits of it. She describes her involvement in the JACL's redress and reparations efforts and the importance of giving back to the community.

Creator

eng Ikeda, Debbie

eng Tinker, Carlene

Relation

eng Issei to Gosei Oral History Project

Coverage

eng Fresno, California

Date

eng 4/29/2019

Identifier

eng SCMS_igoh_00006

extracted text

>> Carlene Tinker: Good morning, Mrs. Ikeda.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Good morning.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, welcome to Special Collections Research
Center at the Henry Madden Library at Fresno State.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Thank you.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK! [Laughing] Today the date is Friday,
March 15th, and the time I think is about 10:05?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: 10:05. And we are in, as I said, Special
Collections. First of all, before we start on my interviewing
you, I'd like to give you a little background of our project.
The project is called Issei to Gosei Interview Project and I
know that is a mouthful. And actually we started out listing all
the generations of the Japanese Americans but then it got to be
even more cumbersome so that's why we compressed it to Issei to
Gosei. And for the viewers, I'd like to take a little time to
explain what those generations are. The Issei were the first
Japanese to come from Japan, probably in the late 1800s,
although there are still people who are coming from Japan now
who are -- we would technically call them Isseis. But the ones
we're talking about are the ones who came over in the late
1800s. OK. Their children are called the Nisei, the second
generation of Japanese. And but the first born in the United
States. The third generation, the Nisei's children, are the
Sanseis. And I believe you and I are both Sansei.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK. And we're the third generation but the
second born here in the United States. Our children are called
yonsei, fourth generation and third generation born here. And
then their children -- and there are some now -- gossei, the
fifth generation.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And the fourth ones born here in the United
States. So anyway, this project was as a result of some work
that I had done as a volunteer. I talked with a director of the
department and said, you know, the stories are really valuable.
We're losing a lot of people and particularly from the San
Joaquin Valley. So what can we do to preserve their stories? And
so she suggested we start doing oral histories and then we
thought, oh, she already had a collection. But we created this

separate one. And so your interview will become a part of that
project and collection.
>> Debbie Ikeda: That's great. I'm familiar. Yoshino Hasagawi I
think started that, the oral interviews, and she got a lot of of
the Nisei.
>> Carlene Tinker: How long ago was that?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Oh, gosh. It was probably in the 80s, that I'm
familiar with.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. And then I think Dr. Izumi Tamaguchi >> Debbie Ikeda: Tamguchi Continued.
>> Carlene Tinker: Also continued with that -- Dr. Tamaguchi.
And I know at the time that I started there were 146 of these, I
think, oral interviews. And we've added -- well, last year I
added five and so this year I'm hoping to complete ten.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Wow, great.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah. So anyway, let's start. With the
interview, I like to have a little bit of background. First of
all, what is your full name?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Deborah Jean Imeko Shikami Ikeda.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh! How come you have so many names?
[ Laughter ]
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well, Deborah Jean Shikami is my -- well,
Deborah Jean Imeko Shikami is my maiden name. And then I got
married and so Ikeda is my last name. But I usually go by
Deborah Jean Ikeda. My parents had both an American middle name
and a Japanese middle name for me.
>> Carlene Tinker: Alright. Yeah. I, on the other hand, have
both non-Japanese first and second name, yeah. Where were you
born and when were you born?
>> Debbie Ikeda: I was born in Chicago, Illinois, in 1952.
>> Carlene Tinker: 1952, so seven years after the camps closed.
>> Debbie Ikeda: [Whispering] Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. OK. Residence -- when did you start
living in Fresno?

>> Debbie Ikeda: In 1981.
>> Carlene Tinker: 1981.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK. We'll find out more about that in a
little bit. Marital status?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Married to Dale Ikeda who is from Clovis,
California.
>> Carlene Tinker: From Clovis, California. And family members?
How many children do you guys have?
>> Debbie Ikeda: We have two children, two daughters. One is a
pharmacist at Clovis Community Hospital and the other is an
attorney for Cal Trans up in Oakland.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh. So one's here and one's in Oakland. OK.
And then educational background?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well, I got actually an elementary education
degree at the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana and
then I got a masters degree in counseling psych at the
University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana. And then I stood at
the joint doctoral program here which was between Fresno State
and UC-Davis.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yes.
>> Debbie Ikeda: The DPEL program. And I got all the way through
the qualifying exams, passed those, and was starting to write my
dissertation when I was made president of Clovis Community
College and at that point I didn't have time to write a
dissertation so I just stopped [laughing].
>> Carlene Tinker: [Laughing] That happens to a lot of people
that get to all but the dissertation. Yes.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Well, do you think now that you're retired -I believe you are retired ->> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Do you think you'll pursue that and finish
it?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well, I don't need it now.
[ Laughter ]

You know, I had thought about doing it but my program doesn't
even exist anymore.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Debbie Ikeda: The joint doctoral program between UC Davis and
Fresno State stopped once Fresno State got its own doctoral
program in educational leadership. So you know, I probably would
have to retake some classes. And my mind is not as sharp as it
was.
>> Carlene Tinker: [Laughing] Oh, come on.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And you know -- and what would I do with it?
I'm retired.
>> Carlene Tinker: Well, I actually -- I didn't know that Fresno
State -- this is a digression. But I didn't know that Fresno
State has a program, a doctoral program?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes. They have a doctoral program in higher
educational leadership or educational leadership for both K-12
and higher ed. They actually have one in nursing. They have one
in physical therapy.
>> Carlene Tinker: Wow!
>> Debbie Ikeda: So they have more -- you know, and they
continue to grow those.
>> Carlene Tinker: Well, you know, that's wonderful because it's
so difficult for us in the valley to go to a place where they
have these programs.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well typically UCs were the only ones allowed
to give doctorates out. But because of the need for doctorates
in those areas I talked about, the CSUs were allowed to do that
on a limited basis, just like community colleges on a limited
basis are allowed to give out baccalaureate degrees in certain
areas that the CSUs and UCs don't allow baccalaureate degrees.
For example, there's one in dental hygiene at -- so there's 19
community colleges that offer baccalaureate degrees and the
degrees are in dental hygiene, aviation, areas that CSU and UC
do not do doctorates in.
>> Carlene Tinker: I see.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Or baccalaureate degrees in.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Well, you know, I've been away from
education. I think I've -- for so long -- I think I've almost
retired 20 years. And so many changes happened.

>> Debbie Ikeda: So many changes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well, the need is really there. And really,
there's going to be a tremendous need for baccalaureate trained
nurses. At this point, though, the CSUs haven't allowed the
community colleges to do that. So there's a little bit back and
forth, tugging going on. But I think eventually both the state
and national need will eventually outweigh that and community
colleges will be allowed to give out baccalaureate degrees in
nursing just because the need is so great.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right, yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And associate degree trained nurses now are -it's not enough training. With the amount of change in the
health care profession and what they are asking nurses to do,
you really need that baccalaureate degree.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Right. Yeah. It's just amazing. And
yes, the need is so, so -- it's scary.
>> Debbie Ikeda: It is because I was on the board at St. Agnus
recently and we continued to have to hire what we called
travelers and those are nurses -- foreign nurses from the
Philippines, primarily -- so they're not permanent. They just
are interested in temporary work. And we need to hire those just
to fill the need.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Because in California there's a state law where
you have to have one nurse to every five patients. So that ratio
creates a need for us to have travelers. And they are twice as
expensive as hiring our own but we don't have enough.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh. Well, I didn't know that you were doing
that -- hiring foreign people and ->> Debbie Ikeda: All the hospitals are forced to do that. Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Isn't that something. Well anyway, let's get
back to the interview. The focus of our interview project is to
talk to Japanese Americans who have lived in the valley for, you
know, either have moved away or have come here and we want to
know what it's been like to be a Japanese American here. And
also if you have a history of, you know, your parents, you can
tell us about that as well.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Sure.

>> Carlene Tinker: OK. So first of all, let's -- I always like
to start with grandparents.
>> Debbie Ikeda: OK.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK? Because that kind of gives us a little
background and so a perspective. So let's talk about your
grandparents on your maternal side.
>> Debbie Ikeda: OK.
>> Carlene Tinker: Do you know very much about them?
>> Debbie Ikeda: I don't. My mother didn't tell me very much
about my grandparents on her side. I do know -- I don't even
know where they were from in Japan. But I do know they came here
and they opened up a small grocery store in Boyle Heights in
L.A. And so they had this small grocery store. And Boyle Heights
at the time was an immigrant neighborhood. There were Japanese
Americans living there, Mexican Americans, so my mother grew up
speaking Japanese, English, and Spanish.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh!
>> Debbie Ikeda: So her Spanish was actually pretty good because
her friends. A lot of her friends spoke Spanish as their first
language. And then she took Spanish in high school so she was
really pretty good. And then in the grocery store she would help
and a lot of the people buying things there spoke Spanish. So
she learned quite a bit. And then she had two brothers and a
sister. And they moved eventually to North Hollywood to try to
avoid the internment which, of course, they didn't. So she ended
up in her senior year they actually moved. And she worked in the
office because she was a clerical student. She was studying
business secretarial and she knew how to take shorthand. And so
she worked in the office there and she got to know all the
teachers because she would check them in. So when she and the
family were sent to Manzanar before graduation, she wrote a
letter to each of her teachers asking if she could finish her
high school work in camp via correspondence. And they all knew
her and they were so kind they all agreed to do that. So they
sent her the work. She did the work. She sent it back to the
high school teachers. They graded it. And the high school then
mailed her her diploma.
>> Carlene Tinker: Isn't that wonderful?
>> Debbie Ikeda: So she was one of the few who was able to do
that. Now, a friend of hers who went to the same high school -I guess she didn't tell them she was doing this. [Laughter] He

had to complete his whole senior year in Manzanar. So he was in
the first graduating class from Manzanar High School but he
basically had to redo his senior year.
>> Carlene Tinker: Isn't that something? OK. Let's shift to your
paternal grandparents. Do you have any background information
about them?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Now, them I know quite a bit more about because
my aunt did a lot of historical background and told us. And so
my grandmother was born in a small town called Uchiko on
Shikoku.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: The island of Shikoku. And was just outside a
larger city of Matsuyama and Matsuyama is known for their hot
springs. Her mother died very young, though. So her father would
send her to school in Matsuyama in one of those carriers and two
men would -- she would sit in this, you know, like carrying
carriage and these two guys would carry her off to Matsuyama to
go to school and she actually went to catholic school in
Matsuyama so she ended up being raised a Christian.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh!
>> Debbie Ikeda: Which is interesting. And then my grandfather
was born outside of Nagoya and his family had a farm. He was not
the oldest son. So he immigrated to the US. There was a famine
in Japan so he came to the United States. And on the boat he met
a young man and they became fast friends. Well, this young man
was the brother of my grandmother. So his good friend was
saying, you know, you ought to meet my sister. I think she'd
make a good wife, blah, blah, blah. And so he showed her a
picture. And so they corresponded via mail. And she ended up
being a picture bride.
>> Carlene Tinker: Ah!
>> Debbie Ikeda: So she came to the United States and they all
had to go off of San Francisco, the island there where the -Angel Island.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: So they were held there but she had an eye
infection so they would not release her to come to the United
States so she was sent back to Japan. So this went on for three
or four years and finally she wrote a letter to my grandfather
releasing him saying, you know, you've waited too long. You
don't -- I don't hold you to this proposal and I release you to

marry someone else. And he said, no, no, no, I'll wait. So she
came again. And this time she got through. And they ended up
having eight children.
>> Carlene Tinker: Whoa!
>> Debbie Ikeda: One passed away in childbirth but they had four
daughters first. And my father was the first son. And then two
other boys, so seven children lived on into adulthood. And the
funny thing is when -- I'm on the Kochi Sisters City Committee
and that's on Shikoku so we went to Kochi and one of the towns
we went to was Uchiko and they have preserved that town. It was
not bombed during the war so they have all the original
buildings and they've maintained this historic area. And we met
the mayor there. And at the time I did not know she was from
Uchiko because nobody could remember where she was from. They
knew she was from Shikoku but they couldn't remember where. So
we had gone through Uchiko. Then we went to Matsuyama. And I
come back home and I'm showing pictures to my relatives and I
said, oh yes, we went to this tiny town called Uchiko and they
all go, oh! That's where she's from!
[ Laughter ]
I just had to -- as soon as I said it, they immediately
remembered. Well, by then I was back. It was too late to ask
anybody because apparently her relatives still have a hotel
there.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Debbie Ikeda: So I could have met some of our relatives
there. So at some point I'm going to go back.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And meet them. But my uncle Joe, the second son
in that family, actually was the first president of Kellogs Corn
Flakes Japan. And so he worked in Tokyo for 30 years and he
married a Japanese national. So he's very familiar with that
area but even he was not sure exactly where that hotel was. So
he was going to be checking around and he's in his 90s now but
he's still committed to trying to find them. [Laughing]
>> Carlene Tinker: [Laughing] Well, you better make that trip
fast.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah!
[ Laughter ]

>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's really interesting. Well, you did
-- you said your grandfather was the first son in that family?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Second.
>> Carlene Tinker: Second, OK. So ->> Debbie Ikeda: He was not the first son. That's why he came.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's why he was able to leave.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah, he was able to leave.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, but yeah. So then they married
eventually and they stayed here?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK, OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And they were actually in Santa Monica.
>> Carlene Tinker: Santa Monica.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And he started a -- he actually studied plants
and horticulture in Japan so he started a nursery in Santa
Monica and they provided plants for all the big hotels and did
their gardening. And so my dad learned to do that as well. And
they did quite well. They had a nursery right on a main street
in Santa Monica and West L.A.
>> Carlene Tinker: Would it have been South Hill Boulevard? Or
no?
>> Debbie Ikeda: No, not that one.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK. Because that is a street where a lot of
the nurseries are.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: I happened to have lived on South Hill
Boulevard.
>> Debbie Ikeda: OK. I was close by there, though.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And so -- yeah. So when the war hit, they lost
everything.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, did they?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Oh yeah, yeah. They --

>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And so they also were sent to Manzanar.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK. Now I remember you saying when we talked
earlier that your parents, your mother and father, were high
school kids at this time. Your mother was able to complete her
education first but how about your dad? Was he a lot older than
your mom or ->> Debbie Ikeda: No, he was actually about the same age but he - or maybe a year younger because he did his senior year in high
school at Manzanar. He actually when they went to Manzanar he
had worked -- well, he had gone to school at Santa Monica High
School, [inaudible] High, right?
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And so he was on the football team there and he
was on the high school newspaper so when he goes to camp they
asked him if he has had any jobs and he said, yeah, he was a
reporter. Ha! So they assigned him to work at the Free Press
which was the camp newspaper. And nobody knew he was a high
school kid because school had not started yet. And so he worked
as a reporter for the Free Press and then in September he said,
OK, I have to quit now and they said well, why? He goes, well, I
have to go to school. They said, you mean you're not out of
school yet? [Laughter] He goes, no, I have to -- I'm in my
senior year. I have to complete it.
[ Laughter ]
So off he went to high school and but when he was working for
the Free Press, my mother actually worked in the mimeograph room
at the camp. So she would run off the Free Press because the
newspaper at that time was reproduced with mimeograph.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: The old purple, you know ->> Carlene Tinker: Oh, yes, I remember those, yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: You remember the mimeographs. OK. Me too. And
so she -- and so they met there and she would always make sure
to run his off first.
[ Laughter ]
And so they met there and they did not get married there at the
time but they were very serious. And he ended up completing his
senior year in high school there. But his dad was one of the

block leaders. They had block leaders at Manzanar. And he said,
you know, we want a high school yearbook. We're seniors, we want
it. So they presented it to the block captains and the parents
because they were -- and they were all men, of course, at that
time. They agreed. And so they -- somehow they raised the money
and they gave it to the kids to print the high school yearbook.
And this is a copy of the high school yearbook that was actually
-- this was a copy because Dianne Honda reproduced it.
>> Carlene Tinker: And we'll go ahead and show it.
>> Debbie Ikeda: OK. So Dianne went ahead and reproduced it. And
Dianne Honda was a teacher at [inaudible] High School and she
found the original high school yearbook in her father-in-law's
papers because he had passed away and her husband Larry Honda's
dad was in camp with my dad. In fact, they were in the same
class. And so they reproduced this and it's called Our World and
it was 1943 to 1944. And there's a picture of the cemetery stone
they have at Manzanar. And these are the pictures. This is the
Parent Teacher Association and that's my grandfather there.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah. I think he kind of looks like Hitler, to
tell you the truth.
[ Laughter ]
But that's OK. He was a block captain or a block leader. And
that's a picture of my father. This was a picture of the high
school yearbook staff.
>> Carlene Tinker: Ah, oh, OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And so he was the editor of the yearbook. And
then so Dianne redid this yearbook and it's a normal yearbook
except for this last picture.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh. Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And I don't know how they got away with this,
to tell you the truth. But these are wire cutters.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And you can see he has his hand to cut the
wire. And there's the century post right on the back. But his
father was a man -- but then the photographer for this yearbook
was a man by the name of Toyo Miyatake and he was a famous
photographer in Los Angeles and good friends with Ansel Adams.

And so Toyo took all the photos. Well, this is his son Archie
Miyatake who was also on the yearbook staff.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And Archie was a good friend of my dad's. And
this is his hand taking and cutting -- pretending to cut the
barbed wire.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Of course, they didn't really cut
interesting story about Toyo Miyatake is that Toyo
a trained photographer and he took a lot of photos
families but also for -- he was an internationally
photographer.

it. And the
was actually
for L.A.
known

>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, is that right?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah! And he was a good friend of Ansel Adams,
as I said. And Ansel Adams was hired by the government to take
photos at Manzanar. So you see some of his photos, Ansel Adams's
photos, of Manzanar and they're typically pretty happy photos.
But when -- he was a friend of the camp directors. And when he
came to the camp, he told the camp director, you know, you have
a very good photographer here in the camp by the name of Toyo
Miyatake. You ought to allow him to take photos because this
history should be captured. And the camp manager or director
said, well, it's illegal for any of the Japanese people here to
take photos. And the workaround was that Toyo would line up all
the photo and the camp manager hired the wife of one of the
soldiers to click the camera because then it's not illegal. He's
not taking the photo. Somebody else is. The woman. So for a
whole day, this woman went around. Toyo would line up the
pictures. Now for photographers, the main thing is clicking,
doing the click. Well, OK. But it was a workaround. And so this
woman lasted a day and she goes to the camp director and she
says, I can't do this anymore. It's too boring. [Laughter] So
she quit. So he hired another woman. She only lasted half a day.
And finally the camp director said, forget it, just take the
photos yourself.
[ Laughter ]
And from that point on, he was allowed to take photos. But his
early photos were just photos of dusk and dawn because he would
sneak out -- he had snuck in a camera lens.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, yeah, yeah.

>> Debbie Ikeda: And he would sneak out and take photos before
anybody else was up.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. There was a story about that as well,
and how he ->> Debbie Ikeda: Yes! How he snuck the camera in.
>> Carlene Tinker: Smuggled his lens in.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah! And then he had a friend build him the
camera box who was a carpenter. And the family still has those
original cameras.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that right?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah. Because Archie Miyatake who was the son
who was in my dad's class took over the business. And then now
Archie's son is a photographer and he has since taken over the
business.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Debbie Ikeda: But Ralph Merritt was the camp director. And so
as I said, this yearbook is a typical yearbook that you would
see. It has photos of all the seniors.
>> Carlene Tinker: And it's wonderful that Dianne was able to
reproduce it.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah! And Dianne reproduced it as a class
project for her journalism class. And the interesting thing she
did was she met with the Manzanar group because the Manzanar
group at the time had a reunion group and they met in L.A. And
they used to have reunions every five years in Las Vegas and
they'd go to the California one. My parents would come out and I
would meet them in Las Vegas so I got to know a lot of them. And
so Dianne met them and she wanted to update the story of all the
high school yearbook staff. So that's what she did. She updated
the stories and what they're currently doing now, after camp.
And she got photos. And the only one she couldn't get was my
father, Reggie Shikami in Chicago. And she and I were talking at
church one day and she was telling me about this project. I
said, oh, my parents were in Manzanar. And she goes, well, I'm
redoing the yearbook. I said, oh, my father was the editor of
the yearbook. She goes, what's your maiden name? And I told her
and she goes, I've been trying to get ahold of your father and
he never returns my calls or emails. I said, he doesn't do email
very well. I said, let me call him for you and I'll give him
your number and tell him that you're waiting for him. [Laughing]
And I called him and I said, Dad, you're holding up this whole

production. You have to write what you're doing now and your
current history and I'll give them a photo. I had a photo of my
parents. So he did that and sent it and she was able to finish
her project.
[ Laughter ]
With everybody in there.
>> Carlene Tinker: I see you were actually an integral part of
this project.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well, I just got the photo and I had him write
what he was doing at the time. And another interesting story is
one of the guys in the camp was a man by the name of Ralph Lazzo
and he was in my father's class as well. He was not Japanese. He
was Mexican American. But he saw all his friends going off to
camp and he didn't think it was right. So he decided, he tells
his father, I'm going to go with them. And he did! He went with
them. And they let him stay. And he lived in the bachelors
quarters. He went to school. And he became a counselor at one of
the L.A. community colleges.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that right?
>> Debbie Ikeda: So I met him at the Manzanar reunions but I
also met him professionally because I was a community college
counselor, as you know, and we would go to these meetings
together. It was really funny.
>> Carlene Tinker: Did he actually stay the whole time?
>> Debbie Ikeda: He stayed the whole time.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that right?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah. And the interesting thing is they let him
stay.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well, if you had a fifth of Japanese blood,
right? So nobody even questioned.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. You know, Debbie, that's -- if I may
call you that.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's what is so intriguing about this
project is that in doing the newspapers that I digitized for the
library, the incongruities, the inconsistencies. You read one

thing but in practice it wasn't like that. And you know, it
sounds like the director of Manzanar was very much like the
director of my camp. They seemed to have supported the people,
encouraged them to be creative, etc., etc., which is you know,
you hear all of these horror stories or you like to -- people
going, oh, it was really awful. But I don't -- I get the picture
that your parents really didn't suffer.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well they were high school kids.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. But I mean, how about their parents?
Did their parents go?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Oh. Oh, absolutely. Well, their parents ->> Carlene Tinker: OK. How did they tolerate? Or do you know?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well, of course the parents lost everything.
You know, it was much harder for the isseis because they lost
everything. At the same time, you know, as I said, my
grandfather on my father's side got busy in camp and became a
block captain and helped to organize the school. And as I said
his background was horticulture so he helped with the -- they
had many, many parks and water features in Manzanar and he
helped design some of those. And my grandmother ended up
teaching sumia painting classes and so a lot of the women there
ended up learning other skills. My grandmother on my mother's
side was taught how to make paper pictures. So it was folding
and she made all these paper pictures and she showed other women
how to do that. She taught ikebana as well. So they found a way
to be useful and it was that same, you know, it can't be helped.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
[ Speaking Japanese ]
>> Debbie Ikeda: It can't be helped. So you make the best of it
and I think that's what they did. And ->> Carlene Tinker: I didn't mean to downplay the, you know, the
uncomfortable ->> Debbie Ikeda: The hardship, yeah, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Of the Isseis -- I didn't want to do that.
But I wanted to impart that for different parts of the age
groups, you know, the younger kids -- like I was a little kid. I
mean, it was not any different there than if I had stayed in
L.A.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well you were playing.

>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, I was playing. But if you're talking
about the Isseis who were denied citizenship, that was awful.
That was awful.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well, the other thing is I think it broke down
the family structure.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Because the kids wanted to eat with the kids.
Well, my father was the oldest son and he was 18 at the time and
he insisted that his younger brothers eat with the family. So my
father's family ate together as a unit. And my -- the younger
brothers, the uncles, they hated that. But he insisted they sit
down and eat with the family [laughing].
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. And that was a key problem, you know,
because the kids did in many families. They did not eat with the
family.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And that was the first sign or the first
stage of breakdown of the family structure.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes. Well, and they had gangs that started to
appear in the camps. And that wasn't good either. I know my
husband's family, the teenagers were creating trouble and his
dad was older and his dad was -- so the young man his age said,
this has to stop.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Debbie Ikeda: These gangs have to stop. So the agreement was
these young teenagers would get their champion and his dad's age
group picked their champion. Well, it was Dale's dad who was the
champion sumo wrestler. And these two would fight it out and
whoever won, you know, would be in charge of the camp, kind of
in the behavior. So Dale's dad -- they picked this really big
kid and Dale's dad wasn't that big but he's very strong. He was
a farmer, right?
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And he worked in the fields. He was very
strong. He just picked that kid up, grabbed him in a sumo hold,
jammed him down, that was the end of it. [Laughing]
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: That fight lasted all of two seconds, I
understand.

>> Carlene Tinker: Wow.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And order was restored in camp.
[ Laughter ]
At his camp and I think his folks were in Jerome, Arkansas. So >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's because he grew up here.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes. They were -- they were in Clovis and
actually Clovis did not have to report to the Fresno Assembly
Center but all the people on one side of 99 did have to report.
But and Dale's mother did have to report because she lived in
Chinatown on East Street.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, yeah. Yeah, west.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And that group had to report.
>> Carlene Tinker: West of 99.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah. So but Dale's dad and his mother were
going to get married so to keep the family together, his family
voluntarily reported to the Fresno Assembly Center and then were
sent off to Jerome.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, is that right?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's how that happened.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK. OK, well getting back to your immediate
family. Your mother and father were high school kids. Your
parents were there. When the war was over, I assumed they stayed
there all the time.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well, what happened was actually my father's
family left earlier.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, did they?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah, and my father and his parents and sisters
-- because his sisters all left as soon as they could get out.
They all got married and who they married volunteered for the
442nd. So they were all able to get out and they originally went
to Cincinnati and then they moved to Chicago.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.

>> Debbie Ikeda: But my three aunts whose husbands were in the
442nd were all injured in the Rescue of the Lost Battalion -the three men, my three uncles. And my three aunts at the time
were living in Cincinnati together and they each had just had
babies.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh my.
>> Debbie Ikeda: So they had babies and they each got a telegram
on the same day. One of my uncles was killed. One of my uncles
was seriously wounded. And one was wounded. And so the
Cincinnati papers heard about this. So they came and they wanted
to do a story on these three women and they took a photo of my
three aunts and they're each holding their baby. And there's a
picture of their husbands in their uniforms. You know how they
take soldiers' pictures. So they had them in front of them. And
when this photo was taken, well it became part of the MIS Photo
Ark -- or, not the MIS, the 442nd Photo Archive that went around
the United States on display. Of course, here you have this
picture of these three women with these three babies with the
telegrams in front of them. And the pictures of their husbands.
So but yeah. They left camp as soon as they could because their
husbands -- well, they got married in camp mostly.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And then their husbands got drafted and so and
then they moved to Chicago. My grandparents and my dad went to
Chicago with them. My mother stayed in camp till the end with
her parents and they went back to L.A.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK. But wait a minute. Your dad's parents -what? Did they move to Chicago with him?
>> Debbie Ikeda: They moved to Chicago.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK. But your mother went -- OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah, my mother went with her parents to L.A.
and then my father got drafted out of Chicago.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And so before he shipped out, he drove back -or, I don't know probably took the train. Whatever. He got back
to L.A. and he and my mother got married in Los Angeles. And
then after the war he got her because she went to work for a
family in L.A. as kind of their housekeeper and she actually
learned to cook there. She worked for a family who was tied into
the Hollywood scene and I think the husband wrote screenplays or
whatever and they used to have parties there. And she learned

how to -- the wife taught her how to cook. So she really -- and
she learned from a really good cook so she learned how to be a
gourmet cook really. And anyway, after the war my father picked
up my mother in L.A. from her parents. They came to Chicago and
they decided to go back to Chicago because on the GI Bill it was
better to go to school in the state you got drafted from. The
benefits were better.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah. So they went back to Chicago and my dad
got a job in a wire products factory.
>> Carlene Tinker: In a what?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Wire products factory.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah. No, first bookbinding and then wire
products.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And he started going to school part time in IT
but he never finished because they had four children -- my
brother. And he had to concentrate on working.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Because my mother at that time did not work.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Debbie Ikeda: She stayed home and watched us.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So that's how you got to Chicago. Or
that's how you got born in Chicago.
>> Debbie Ikeda: That's how I ended up being born in Chicago
because technically I really feel like I should have been a
native Californian. [Laughing]
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah! [Laughing]
>> Debbie Ikeda: Had it not been for the war [inaudible] I would
have -- well, who knows what I'd be because they probably
wouldn't have met because they met at Manzanar.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah. So anyway, OK. So let's take you
from Chicago. You grew up there. What was life like for you in
Chicago as a Japanese American?

>> Debbie Ikeda: Well Chicago was a very -- Chicago is a multiethnic city. It's like L.A. and New York in a lot of ways. More
like New York, I think. And but they have segregated
neighborhoods in Chicago. There's an Italian neighborhood and a
Greek neighborhood, an African American neighborhood, and a
Japanese neighborhood, and a Chinese neighborhood. But the high
school I went to was -- well, we started off in uptown which was
a poor area. You had a -- but it was a lot of the Japanese lived
there. The Buddhist temple was in that area. A Japanese store
was in that area. And ->> Carlene Tinker: Were you Buddhist or Christian?
>> Debbie Ikeda: No, I was Christian.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Because my grandmother ->> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's right.
>> Debbie Ikeda: On my father's side was raised Catholic but
when she came here she ended up going to the Japanese Methodist
Church in L.A.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: So they went to I think it was West L.A. Unity
Methodist Church.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And so my father was raised in the Methodist
Church.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And my mother's family, they started off as
Shinto. And then they went to -- oh, I know. My mother and my
grandmother took the children and they took some of the local
Mexican kids to the church and they were not treated well. They
did not treat the Mexican kids well. So my mother and
grandmother said, no, that's it. We're not going to this church
anymore. This is not where I want my kids. No. If they're not
going to treat people nicely then we're not going here. So then
they went to -- then she started experimenting. She went to a
holy rollers church that scared them all.
[ Laughter ]
And they -- anyway, they went to different churches. I don't
know where they finally ended up at, probably not being that

religious because they were going to so many different churches.
But my father was very religious so we ended up in Chicago going
to the Japanese Congregational Church, not the Methodist Church
which is interesting, probably because my uncle was very active
in the Congregational Church in Chicago. So it was called Tri-C
-- Christ Congregational Church. And but in Chicago, as I said,
we went to an elementary school and they had a middle school in
Chicago and it was a pretty diverse middle school. We had kids
from Appalachia there. We had African American kids. We had
Mexican kids, Japanese kids, Chinese kids, all kind of kids. So
I actually went to a school, very diverse school, which I think
was good.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yes.
>> Debbie Ikeda: But there were actually a lot of Japanese kids
there. And then we moved further north to the north side near
Loyola University and near Evanston, Rogers Park area, which was
a more affluent area. And the high school for that area -- well,
the high school for uptown was Sinn High School and that's where
we had all started so we asked to stay at Sinn but my younger
brother. A better high school really was Sullivan High School
which was on the north side and that was primarily an all Jewish
high school. So he was not in high school yet so he went through
middle school and high school there in Rogers Park and as I said
it was a more affluent area. So we went to middle school and
high school that was more multi-ethnic, more not as affluent but
a good school. Good enough. And we had a lot of -- we had some
AP classes and kids from the south side of Chicago who wanted to
go to a better school were allowed to come to Sinn High School
which is interesting because they were not allowed to go to
Sullivan but they were allowed to go to Sinn. Sinn accepted
transfers. I guess Sullivan didn't. I don't know. Anyway ->> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: I should find out more about that. But ->> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, that's interesting.
>> Debbie Ikeda: So we went to high school there. In our high
school years we were active in the junior JCL and so we were
involved with the Japanese American community that way. And we
were also -- I was involved in what was called the Nisei
Ambassadors Drum and Bugle Corps which was you would think it
would be all Japanese American kids but it wasn't. It was a very
-- it was the first really multi-ethnic drum and bugle corps in
the country, probably, because most of the corps were white. So
we were the first multi-ethnic group and we had African American

and we had everybody in there. But it was, I would say,
predominantly Japanese Americans because we were sponsored by
the VFW and American Legion and Japanese American Post, so the
Nisei Post which is another interesting story because the niseis
after they came back from World War II were not allowed to join
the VFW post and American Legion post that were existing because
they were Japanese. So what did they do? They formed their own.
So we had a Nisei VFW post and a Nisei American Legion post. And
it was the VFW posts and American Legion posts that sponsored
drum and bugle corps at the time. So they sponsored our drum and
bugle corps and we were the Nisei Ambassadors. And as I said we
were primarily Japanese Americans but we had a very multi-ethnic
group. But our parents, we would have bento boxes. [Laughter] So
we would go on the buses, you know, with nigiri and the African
American kids and Mexican kids grew to love teriyaki and nigiri.
[ Laughter ]
And we would -- when you competed, you took buses all over the
primarily the east coast and south and Canada. Drum and bugle
corps were not that big on the west coast at the time. So we
would -- and the big competitions, the national ones, were on
the east coast. But building up to that, you would go to these
other competitions. And the first competition -- well, we went
to many. Many in the Midwest -- Indianapolis, etc. But we went
down south one time and that was a mistake because we had
African American kids in our corps and ->> Carlene Tinker: What year would this be in?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Oh, this would have been in the 70s.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah, '71-72.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And so we went down south and I think it was
Atlanta. I don't really remember, though. It was definitely a
southern city. And they didn't know what to make of the Japanese
kids. So we were just a novelty. So they were very nice to us.
But the African American kids they were not nice to. And these
African American kids were from Chicago. So they did not know
how to act in the south and they were not acting the way they
were suppose to act in the south like the other African
Americans who were born in the south who "knew better." So they
acted like us. Well, they weren't treated right. And so people
wouldn't sell them stuff and we went into a restaurant, they
wouldn't seat us. So all the boys got mad. So they went into one

of these stores and they shoplifted which was a really bad thing
to do.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And so the shop owner came onto the boys' bus
and said, hey, your kid shoplifted! And our parents were saying,
no way, my kids? So they opened -- you know, in buses you had
these areas where you put your luggage up on top. Well, they
opened it and all this candy started coming out. [Laughing]
>> Carlene Tinker: Ohhh [laughing].
>> Debbie Ikeda: So our parents were so embarrassed. Anyway, so
they paid the shop owners and they told the kids never do that
again. And they said, you know, you're just reinforcing what
they think about you. And but we never went south again after
that experience. Instead we stayed in the Midwest and the east
coast and we did go to Canada.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Well, for the Japanese, like you said,
kids of Japanese descent, you were kind of a novelty.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah! In the south we were a novelty. In fact,
we kind of played it up and pretended we didn't speak English
and they were giving us free doughnuts and free candy because
they thought we were from some other country.
[ Laughter ]
>> Carlene Tinker: Well and partly too, I think, it sounds like
you didn't really experience a lot of racism or discrimination
in Chicago because when we first were allowed to move out of the
camps to Chicago we were a novelty.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And so, I'll tell you, my grandmother is
German. And she married my grandfather who was a law student at
Evanston.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Oh! OK!
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. And ->> Debbie Ikeda: So you know what I'm talking about. Evanston is
right on the border of Rogers Park.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. And so when they got introduced through
a mutual friend, I'm sure, you know, they didn't know one
Japanese from another, right? And they got married. There were

no problems. And then they moved back to L.A. because that's
where my grandpa set up his law practice. OK?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Ahh.
>> Carlene Tinker: But yeah, and then even today people don't in
the Midwest really recognize us or even know our history which
is to me amazing because so many of us were leaving the camps at
that time and these people were growing up at that time.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes. And many went to Chicago.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah!
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah, many. And in fact, my husband's side of
the family also left camp from Jerome and went to Chicago. And
the whole family went to Chicago. But his mother and two
brothers came back to the west coast. Well, the mother was
married. So they came back to Clovis. But the two other brothers
went to L.A. even though they were from Fresno. And one brother
and her twin sister stayed in Chicago.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And so I grew up knowing his cousins because
they went to Christ Congregational Church. So I knew them better
than I knew him because I grew up with them. And when I first
met my husband here, I asked him, do you know anyone in Chicago?
And he said, no, I don't know anyone there because he had only
seen them once. They had only come out -- and he totally forgot
about them. Then when he's meeting my parents in L.A., my mother
asked him, do you know anyone in Chicago? And I said, no, he
said he didn't know anyone. And he goes, oh, wait a minute, I do
have some relatives in Chicago. And I said, well what are their
names? And he said, Kotohira. I said, Kotohira? We know
Kotohiras. He goes, oh there must be a lot of them in Chicago. I
said, well, there's three boys -- Ken, etc., etc. And he goes -those are my cousins. [Laughter] I said, I dated your cousin.
[ Laughter ]
Which I had! I had dated his cousin! Because his cousin Kenny
went to the University of Illinois the same time I did. So it's
just really funny.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah. So [laughing] -- well anyway,
getting back to your residence in Chicago.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: You went to high school there.

>> Debbie Ikeda: I went to high school there.
>> Carlene Tinker: And then you went to college in ChampaignUrbana.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right? OK. And then what that kind of ->> Debbie Ikeda: Now, there there were not that many Asians.
>> Carlene Tinker: No.
>> Debbie Ikeda: In fact, I came later to find out there were
only 300 Japanese Americans on that whole campus of 25,000
students. There were 300.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And the only reason I found out is because
while we were there in the -- by then it was '74-75. You had all
these protests going on.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Berkeley, you know, had started their protests.
And two assistant professors from there had come to Champagne
and were starting to teach on our campus and they started the
Asian American Alliance. They wanted to start an Asian American
club at the University of Illinois because there was none. So
they, you know, put up flyers and my roommates and I went to go
-- well, two of us went to go find out about it. And so we ended
up starting the Asian American Alliance there in 1975. And it
was there the whole time I was there. And we actually marched in
the Vietnam War protest and they wanted the Asian American lines
up front because we kind of looked like the enemy.
[ Laughter ]
And they want us carrying the sign, "Stop Killing Our Brothers
and Sisters," Right?
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh dear!
[ Laughter ]
>> Debbie Ikeda: And I had never been to a protest so I wore my
nice raincoat and a rainhat and I'm walking with this friend of
mine who is from L.A. because we had kids from all over there.
And they said, you don't go to a protest in -- you're supposed
to wear like a blue worksheet and jeans. And I said, well,
nobody told me the dress. And it's raining so of course I'm

going to wear my raincoat and my rainhat. [Laughter] So I kind
of stuck out. But ->> Carlene Tinker: But there were only 300 of you?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Only 300 Japanese Americans. But there were
other Asian Americans. And what happened was they took a photo
of us and we're in the front and we're on the front of the Daily
Line which was the school paper. And someone sent that photo
back to one of the kids' parents in Chinatown. There was a
Chinese kid. He got in a lot of trouble because someone said
this is what your son is doing with your hard-earned money. And
there he is marching in this protest parade. So yeah, he got in
trouble. He was an engineering student.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh my gosh.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Anyway, so I found out later on there was a
woman who with her dissertation at the University of Illinois
studied the Asian American movement at the University of
Illinois. And she wrote her dissertation on it. And she came out
to -- somehow she got our names. And she asked to meet with us.
And I -- so several of us have moved to the west coast. So I
said, I can pull together some of the members of the Asian
American Alliance because we've kept in touch with each other
over the years and you can meet with all of them. So a friend of
mine who lives in Fremont, she hosted a luncheon and it was
potluck and we had about 20 of us there. And this young woman
came to interview all of us for her dissertation. And that's
where we found out there were only 300 Japanese Americans. At
the time I said, I probably knew all of them then. So [laughing]
-- I didn't realize there were so few.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: But because we were in the Asian American
Alliance, a lot of our friends were Asian American. And so it
seemed like there were more but there weren't really that many.
And I noticed it when I went to my education classes because I
was the only Asian in my major class. Now, in my general ed
classes there were more. But once I got to my major classes
there were very few Asian Americans. In fact, none in my major
classes. And I thought, gee, this is really interesting. I look
around and there would be ->> Carlene Tinker: Huh!
>> Debbie Ikeda: Is that it?
>> Carlene Tinker: That's fascinating.

>> Debbie Ikeda: That looked like me.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, even in the '70s.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Because I was going to college in the '50s
and there were quite a few of us.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Where did you go to school?
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah!
>> Debbie Ikeda: Where did you go to school?
>> Carlene Tinker: UCLA.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well see, that's the west coast.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Whereas in the Midwest, although there were a
lot in Chicago, by the time you get to the university and in
education -- I think had I been an engineer or computer science
major, that's where all my Asian American friends were. Very few
in education.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Yeah. So did you associate more with
Japanese Americans?
>> Debbie Ikeda: I associated more with Asian Americans.
>> Carlene Tinker: Asian Americans.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah, because I had belonged to that club. And
so ->> Carlene Tinker: Oh, I see.
>> Debbie Ikeda: So my social activities -- we had our
intramural team. We were terrible.
[ Laughter ]
But you know it was interesting because the Chinese kids, they
had -- there were a lot of foreign, international students,
Chinese students. And so they formed their own club. And so the
Chinese American kids went to both.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Debbie Ikeda: They want to the Chinese National Club and they
came to the Asian American Club so they kind of crossed the
barrier between both clubs. But for Japanese Americans, we

mostly hung around with Asian Americans versus the foreign
nationals. So it was really interesting.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, so then you got your undergraduate
degree there.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK. Then what did you do? What field were you
in at that time? Or what were you interested in and what did you
pursue?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well, I was in my -- I was on a scholarship
there. So I could take as many units as I wanted. So I was
taking a lot of units every semester and I worked at the
bookstore there which was a great job because except for rush,
it was really slow. So I was able to study when I sat at the
cash register because hardly anybody came in. And so I studied - back there you'd get your elementary credential, ed
credential, or your teaching credential in four years. You
didn't do this fifth year thing. And so I got my teaching
credential and I taught for two years.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: In Chicago Public Schools which was a condition
of my scholarship. But in my fourth year I had all the classes I
needed to graduate except for one so I petitioned because while
I was doing my teacher training in one of the elementary schools
I met a woman who was doing her internship in counseling. And
she was out there doing her hours in counseling and I asked her
what she was doing. And she told me about her field and I
thought, gee, that's really interesting. I think that's what I
really want to do. So I petitioned the program there and they
let me take graduate programs in the counseling ed program. So
they let me start my masters degree early. And I was able to
take them under my scholarship. So I completed almost a year's
worth of my graduate program which was a two-year program while
I was still an undergrad. And then I came back and I got a job
teaching kindergarten for half the day and being a reading
specialist for half the day. Not that I had a -- I mean, I had a
couple of extra classes in reading but it's not -- I don't know
about Chicago public schools because they really don't check
your background very well, I don't think because they made me a
reading specialist. Thankfully I had some extra background in
reading. And they also made me a music teacher. And they didn't
even ask if I had any music background. [Laughter] Which I
fortunately had. So and then the following year I was the eighth
grade science teacher at another school. Again, they don't ask

you if you have any special training. But at the time I made
home visits which I found out later on I wasn't supposed to do
because it was a bad neighborhood. But families were very nice
to me. But I'd visit these homes and I'd see three generations
of family living in one home and they were all on the FDC. And I
would think, gosh, do these things have a chance? You know? Are
they going to be able to break out of this cycle because here's
three generations. But anyway, families were very nice. And I
just wondered about the kids. But after I did my two years I
went back because I wanted to finish my masters degree in
counseling psych. So I went back and I finished my degree. And
after I finished that I decided I wanted -- I thought, you know,
really to have a chance, the best chance was community colleges
for these kids. If they came to community college I felt they
had a good chance of transferring and anyone can afford a
community college, I felt, given financial aid. So I went -there's six Chicago community colleges, public colleges. It's a
six-college system in Chicago. So I visited all six systems -and this is before internet. So I went to the mailrooms of all
these six schools. And I had my resumes. I had a stack of
resumes in envelopes and I'd put them in what looked to me like
administrative mailboxes [laughter] at all six schools. And I
got a call that evening from Loop City College. A guy had
received a grant, I think it was either an NSF or one of these
grants, to start what was called the Individual Needs Program
and he needed to hire a counselor. So he asked me if I would
come in and interview. I said, yes, I'd love to. He goes, when
can you come in? I said, tomorrow? He said yes. So I went in the
next day and one guy interviewed me and he goes, can you start
tomorrow? I said, yeah, I can start tomorrow so I did. And I
started off teaching psychology and being a counselor for this
individual needs program. And we had about 125 kids. And it was
a block program where we identified all the classes the students
were going to take for two years depending on their major. And
he picked the teachers he knew would work really well with these
kids. And he -- and so we set up 25 sheets for each block of
kids and these 25 kids were going to take the same classes with
each other. And so they formed these cohorts and they stayed
together for two years. And the whole point was to transfer
these students to the University of Illinois Chicago campus
because we had agreements in place with the Chicago campus that
if we could get these kids through with a, you know, B average
they would accept them. And we got them through, working
together in cohorts and really I think we had identified the
best teachers at that school, to tell you the truth. And they
really worked hard with these kids and we also hired tutors. And
my tutors were all doctoral students from the University of

Chicago who couldn't find jobs and these were full time tutoring
jobs and they took them. Because they were doctoral students at
the time and I had a biology student and an English student and
I mean all the different areas -- business. And they were very
good teachers and they knew their content. And I had one guy who
was going on to medical school. I mean, really topnotch tutors
and they really worked with these kids and they got them through
and these kids went on. So I stayed. I was a counselor there for
two years and then they made me the director of the program for
a year and then they made me an assistant dean of academic
support services for the next two years. And at the time I
started looking to move back to the west coast because Chicago
is cold. And so -- and I knew California had a lot of community
colleges and I wanted to stay in the community college system.
And I had a lot of relatives in California and I'd been here. So
I went. So I applied to a couple places, Bakersfield College and
Fresno City College. Looked in the Chronicle of Higher Ed. And I
got an interview at Fresno City College and I told my parents
who had been here through Fresno maybe in the 1930s and they
both said, Fresno? They don't have paved streets in Fresno.
[Laughter] And I said, oh my gosh, you're kidding! They said, oh
no, it's just farms and they don't have paved roads and you're
not going to like it. And so it's too late. I already accepted
the interview. So I flew out and as we're flying into Fresno I'm
looking out the window and there's paved roads. I can see paved
roads for miles. And I am at the Holiday Inn which at the time
that's what it was -- kitty-corner to the airport. And I call
back to Chicago. I said, you know, they have paved streets
everywhere.
[ Laughter ]
And we started laughing and said, oh yeah, it's 50 years later.
Of course they have paved streets. And I go to interview at
Fresno City College which is on the old Fresno State campus and
it's a beautiful campus. It sits on a hundred acres. They have
all these old buildings, a lot of greenery. And I was used to
Chicago colleges which -- community colleges -- which mine was
the downtown branch and it was a highrise of 13 stories all in
one building. And that was it. And the other campuses were
football-sized buildings, all one big building with four or five
stories because it's too cold to go outside.
>> Carlene Tinker: Ohhh.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And that's the campus and that's what I was
used to. So out here I see this beautiful campus. I thought,
this is gorgeous. And so I interviewed and this was nothing like
the interview I had in Chicago. I'm sitting in front of, I don't

know, 12 to 14 people and they have all these questions and I
interviewed with them and then I went to visit my relatives in
L.A. and I flew back to Chicago. And the vice president of
student services -- I made it into the final three. He
interviewed me over the phone. And he hired me, sight unseen. He
was African American. He was the first African American
administrator hired at Fresno City College. And he was hired the
year before I was. And he in turn hired myself and another dean
of students. I was the dean for counseling, guidance, career
planning, and this other dean was for support services like EOPS
and international students and things like that, student
activities. And he was African American. So but I had not yet
met the president because the president really makes the final
decision normally. But the president didn't even interview me.
But they called me up and they asked me if I'll meet the
president at O'hare Airport. He's on his way to vacation in
Florida. And at that time you could still go to the gates. This
was before all the security and 9/11. So I went to the gate to
meet the president and I don't see anyone that looks like a
president coming out of the gangway. And this guy comes -- and
I'm in a suit and high heels. This guy comes up to me. He goes,
you must be Ms. Shakami. I said, yes, you're Dr. Macaulay?
Because he had a Hawaiian shirt on and Bermuda shorts.
[ Laughter ]
And he didn't look like a president. And so I walked him to his
gate and he talked with me. And yeah, I was hired. And I started
in August of '81. And ->> Carlene Tinker: And so you were a migrant but [laughing] ->> Debbie Ikeda: Yes. And my secretary was a Nisei by the name
of Iya Kimora. Her husband taught biology over at Fresno City
College. And my relatives knew a woman here, Sumi Suda, who I
had shipped all my stuff to. Sumi Suda was a good friend of Iya
Kimora's because they both went to the Buddhist church. And so I
was looking for an apartment. So I had found an apartment and
Sumi Suda was telling my secretary, she can't live there, that's
a bad neighborhood. So it was on Ashland and I don't know West
or something. And it was an apartment right next to the
railroads or Railtrack. And my secretary said, you have to move.
I said, what do you mean? She goes, you're in a bad neighborhood
and Sumi Suda said you have to move because that's a bad
neighborhood and your parents wouldn't like it. And I said, Iya,
compared to Chicago this is a lovely neighborhood. [Laughter]
Really. Trust me. I feel very safe here. Really. Believe me. I'm
not moving again. [Laughter] But she was my mother's age,
really.

>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And she was very kind and she was very helpful.
And she said, you should join the JACL. So I did. I joined the
Fresno chapter of the JACL. I think the first year I was here.
>> Carlene Tinker: Eighty-one, '82 maybe?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah. And the next year they made me president
of the Fresno chapter. [Laughter] That's what happens to the new
people, right?
>> Carlene Tinker: [Laughing] Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And so I was the chapter president when they
had their 60th anniversary.
>> Carlene Tinker: Which one?
>> Debbie Ikeda: 60th.
>> Carlene Tinker: 60th?
>> Debbie Ikeda: I think. It was either 60th or 65th. I think.
One of those.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah! That's right. It started in the
'30s. Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Right. So I was in moderator. Actually it
started in 1923.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh. Was it that long ago?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah, it started as the American Loyalty
League.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: The first JACL chapter in the United States -the Fresno chapter claims to be, as the American Loyalty League.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh! I didn't know that. Oh!
>> Debbie Ikeda: And Dr. Tomya Tabei was the first president.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Anyway. So I was the moderator for that event.
And I guess my husband saw me at that event. And Rick Berman who
is also an attorney was active in the Fresno JACL because his
wife was Japanese American. She was a sansei and so he thought
it would be good for him to be involved in the JACL for his
children because they were half Japanese. And then you'd go to

the picnics and stuff like that. Anyways, so Dale apparently
asked Rick, is Debbie dating anyone? Rick says, no I don't see
her dating anyone. When she comes to bed, she usually comes by
herself. So Rick introduced us. He invited us to a Rick Layman
fundraiser together as a way of introducing us. And -- And of
course this was, I guess, a few years later because I was
starting to look around to move to San Francisco or L.A. because
I really wanted to be back in a more urban area than Fresno was.
But so I met my husband and we started dating. And he's from
here. And he chose to be here. He went to Stanford. He went to
UC Davis Law School. He had worked in the Bay Area. He had
worked in Sacramento. And he came home. And he got a job working
for the city's attorney's office and then he started working at
the Blumberg Kokorin firm. He went into private practice, so he
was in private practice when I met him. And he eventually became
partner at that firm. Anyway, when you're an attorney in private
practice it's hard to move because you establish a book of
clients.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And by then we had had our first child and my
husband's family still had their family farm in Clovis. His dad
and his uncle farmed it together, their 40-45 acres there on
International and in between Willow and Miniwawa which is
actually right down the street from Clovis Community College.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's right, yeah!
>> Debbie Ikeda: And Clovis North High School. And there's a big
church there at Clovis Hills and their property is right next to
it.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, is that right?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah! So the nice thing about raising a family
in this area is their farm is right next to a llama farm. So we
would go out to the farm, take the children, and their
grandfather would give them rides on the tractor and they would
go visit the llamas and the people next door would let them, you
know, feed the llamas. And they're mean, though. And so it was
really nice, a nice place to raise kids -- better than, I think,
L.A. or San Francisco because here you have urban and country.
You know? You had both. And you were up in the mountains in an
hour. You could take them skiing. And so they were able to learn
how to ski. And Yosemite is right here. And actually that is one
of the reasons I wanted to come to Fresno, because Yosemite. I
had come out here. I had gone to Yosemite. I was amazed at how
spectacular that national park was. And I thought, gosh, I'm

only an hour away from Yosemite National Park. How wonderful is
that? And Sequoia National Park. Really wonderful place if you
like the outdoors. So I really felt fortunate and really -- and
our kids went to Fort Washington Elementary School and Janet
Young happened to be their principal. And at the time, Janet
Young knew every -- I took the kids to school and Janet Young
would say, hi Tiffany, hi Megan. And I immediately said, did you
guys get in trouble? How come she knows your name? Well it turns
out she knew every kid's name at that school. She made it a
habit to learn every child's name at that school.
>> Carlene Tinker: Wow. How impressive.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah! Very impressive. I mean, she knew their
names, she knew their faces. And I got to know Janet over the
years because she eventually ended up becoming superintendent at
Clovis Unified. But the kids, I think, got a really good
education at Fort Washington and then at Clovis West. And they
went on to do, I think, fine. One went to UC Irvine. The other
went to Santa Cruz. And they're well off into their careers now.
So you know.
>> Carlene Tinker: Well, now, when you were raising your
children, you were continuing to work, right?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Because you've had several positions in
administration. Not only were you at Fresno City. You then
transferred to the new -- what was it? The international campus
->> Debbie Ikeda: Well here's the interesting thing. I actually
stayed at Fresno City College for 24 years.
>> Carlene Tinker: Was it that long?
>> Debbie Ikeda: As the Dean of Counseling and Guidance.
Opportunities came up at other campuses in the district. There
was an opportunity to apply for the vice president of student
services at Reedley College but at the time my children were
very young and I did not want to be that far away from them,
should they need me.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Debbie Ikeda: But I was thinking, I don't know what I was
thinking because my husband was right in town. He certainly
could have taken care of any emergency but I wasn't thinking
that way. And I really should have because I think had I done
that, I would have moved up much earlier.

>> Carlene Tinker: Yes.
>> Debbie Ikeda: But I declined that job. I declined to even
apply. And I was advised to apply. And I think I would have
gotten it, had I applied, but I did not. But as the dean of
students for counseling and guidance, I was given a lot of
opportunities to do other things. They also made me the dean of
workforce development at the same time. So just as that was
getting really big, I got involved in that. And the whole
assessment thing was big in the community colleges and I got ->> Carlene Tinker: The what was?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Assessment and placement ->> Carlene Tinker: Oh, OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And all of that. And ->> Carlene Tinker: You want to explain that a little bit?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Oh, sure. Well, California community colleges,
there's a law. A lawsuit came from MALDF, the Mexican American
Legal Defense Fund, against the California Community Colleges
about the placement tests being biased. So you had to go through
this whole process to make sure your test wasn't biased. So I
was involved in that statewide development of that process. And
I got to be involved then in a lot of statewide committees
because I had been in that position for so long and I got to
know a lot of people. So I helped to develop that process for
developing the test and then working with the high schools on
developing cut scores and so that was an interesting process.
But as I said, I got to try out a lot of different things. And I
think at the dean's level, that's really where you're making a
lot of the hiring decisions, honestly. And when I came into my
dean's job, I was very young. I was 29. I was probably the
youngest administrator they had ever hired. And as a result of
that, all my, all the people who worked for me -- the counselors
who worked for me were quite a bit older. And most of them were
male and white. There were two other women. One was Latina and
the other was white. And one of the women was an older caucasian
woman and she was actually -- she applied for the same job I
applied for. She did not get it. She had been a longterm
counselor and so I think there -- but she was so gracious. Her
name was Mary-Alice Easton and she was so kind. And she helped
me break into that job and really she was very helpful. She
became my righthand person. Well, she was a good friend of my
secretary's and I think that helped, to tell you the truth
because my secretary was very helpful as well. As you know,
secretaries do all the work anyway.

[ Laughter ]
So but as a result of that, at the time, I chaired the hiring
committees for counselors. And all the counselors were involved
in hiring our other counselors. But one of the things I wanted
to do was to diversify the staff and have counselors more
reflect the students we were serving. I wanted Spanish-speaking
counselors because we had a lot of Spanish-speaking students.
And one of the counselors that I hired, she was half African
American and half Mexican American. And she spoke Spanish and
she'd been a social worker. So she was not the typical masters
degree in counseling. Her masters degree was in social work. But
she had worked for the Department of Social Services. She knew
all the services that were out there. And the kind of students
we were getting at the community college needed to utilize those
community services. And most of my counselors did not know what
those services were. Well she did. So I really worked with our
counselors to get them to see the value of bringing in people
who had different skills than they had to diversify our skillset
to help our students. So they agreed so we hired this woman. And
she really did a good job in training the rest of us on all the
community services that were available to our students so we
could then refer our students out for these additional services.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Then that is such an important job of
all schools, principally at the community college because a lot
of times the kids who go to a community college don't have the
opportunity to go beyond that and maybe that's the terminal
place, the stopping place. And if they don't get that help,
obviously they're not prepared to go out into the world.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Exactly. And so the interesting thing was she
was a student at Fresno City College and one of her counselors
was still working there. He was an African American counselor.
And she told me she had pulled him aside one day and she said,
you told me to go into child development because I wasn't going
to make it. And I want you to know I don't ever want you telling
that to another woman again because you need to let women do
whatever it is that they want to do and encourage them to do it.
And that was very healthy for him to hear because I don't think
he ever did that again.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah. I think given the person's
background and what they've grown up in, you know, it's amazing
that they don't understand. They don't understand. You know? And
what they're conveying to their students as the -- I was a high
school counselor and I tried to tap into the skills and academic
abilities at the same time. So I often would try to get the kids

-- if they were not really academic but maybe, you know, focus
on their studies but also look at vocational things as well.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Exactly.
>> Carlene Tinker: So I would have them go in to school in the
morning at Bullard High. Then they would go over to Cart.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes. Which I think is great.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh yeah. And they blossomed.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: They blossomed.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes. Absolutely. Because you're tying that core
connection and they see the need.
>> Carlene Tinker: So you went from City College to ->> Debbie Ikeda: OK. So I was for 24 years. And then finally we
had a president. His name was Ned Doffney, African American man.
And the Reedley College president left. And so our vice
president of instruction, Tony Cantu, they asked him to go down
to Reedley and be the interim president down there at Reedley.
Well then there's an opening for an interim vice president as
Fresno City College of Instruction. Well, Ned Doffney said, you
know, you need to apply for this job. I said, but Ned, I'm on
the student service side of the house. He goes, no, you need to
apply. Well, he's going to make the decision. He's the
president. So I applied. And much to the angst of the deans of
instruction, I got the job. So now here's a student service
person in charge of all of instruction. And actually I think it
worked out better than they had hoped for because as a dean of
students, I [inaudible] of course I knew all their programs
because counselors have to know all the programs, not just their
own area. Whereas deans of instruction really know their own
area very well but not so much the other areas. Well, I knew all
their areas because we had to. So I was very familiar with all
their programs. And not only that but the vice president of
student services, Robert Fox, and I -- he hired me. And we had
worked together for 24 years as a team. And I trusted him and he
trusted me. So when it came time to divvy up the budget, I could
tell him, you know, I really need this for instruction and this
is why and he trusted me. And we were able to work together as a
team and get rid of the silos that had been in effect the whole
time I was there. You had instruction and you had student
services and they should be working together but they were
always vying for the same pot of dollars. Well, now we're

working together as a team because I had worked with him as a
team. And so I was seeing all these opportunities for
instruction workers and student services so there was much more
collaboration going on because I could see how student services
could help instruction. And I was saying, you know, I think
student services can help you with this. And we brought them in
on some of the projects and I think it worked out really well.
So that year went very well and the deans of instruction were
happy with me, I think, because at the end they gave me this
nice gift and party, etc., etc. But then Tony came back to
Fresno City as the vice president of instruction. I went back to
being the dean of students but then the vice president of
instructions and student services opened at the North Centers.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, OK. That's how you ->> Debbie Ikeda: That's how I went out to -- and the North
Centers was, they're the North Centers of Reedley College and
they included Clovis, Madera, and Oakhurst. And we functioned
really almost as a third college even though we were centers.
And but we had our own president but he was called the vice
chancellor.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: But he was at the same level of the president.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And I was at the same level as all the other
vice presidents except there was one of me. I was a vice
president of instructions and student services. All the other
campuses had two, one vice president of --. And I liked that
because as a vice president of both I had the deans of
instruction and the deans of students meeting with me weekly and
we worked together as a team, similar to what I had with the
vice president of student services when I was the interim vice
president of instruction. It was one team instead of two. So we
met weekly and there was a lot of collaboration going on. And I
think it worked really well. We didn't have the silos develop
that you had at the other campuses that just naturally develop.
Well there was always the plan for Clovis to break off and
become the third college in the district. And so after about, I
don't know, six years or so, the vice chancellor retired and I
applied to be the president for the North Centers. And I was
given that title. And then when Clovis had to break, we had to
break off from Madera and Oakhurst because we were becoming a
third college and the accreditation commission said you can't
have centers over centers. You have to break off. So Madera and

Oakhurst then fell directly under Reedley and we were a
standalone campus. And so for the next two to four years we went
through the process to become accredited as Clovis Community
College and I took us through that process. Well, with of course
a team. Our team, which was comprised of a great faculty, staff,
and administrative team, all had one goal. And that was to make
Clovis Community College a college. And we worked together as a
team to do that and we all had that same focus. And we did
whatever we needed to do to get Clovis accredited as Clovis
Community College.
>> Carlene Tinker: And that happened when? About three years
ago?
>> Debbie Ikeda: That happened in 2015.
>> Carlene Tinker: OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: We became Clovis Community College.
>> Carlene Tinker: Four years ago.
>> Debbie Ikeda: So I stayed on for one more year to make sure I
had all the processes in place because when you start a new
college you have to put things in place with the state
chancellor's office to make sure you're getting your funding
properly and to make sure all the data was getting reported
properly because the district then had to break us off. The
advantage we had was we had been doing this separation for years
because we always knew we were going to break off. So our
funding stream was always separate. So and our student services
was the difficulty because our funding for student services went
through Reedley College and then we got a portion. And the way
the state funds you is based on the number of students you're
serving in these different programs. Well we in some cases we
did not -- well, we didn't have an OP&S program. So we had no
EOPNS students so we started from scratch. But the others -- we
had our own DSPS program and disabled student services program,
etc. And so I was able to make sure we got our adequate funding
for those programs. For EOPNS we started from scratch. But I
hired a really good person, Kelly Tibay, to build that program
up and within six months we went from zero students to a hundred
students. So our base was a hundred and I just heard yesterday
it's up to 400 students. So from 2016 to now, 2019, we went from
100 to 400 students. So that's a great job. She's ->> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that sounds really wonderful. Yeah. So
when did you actually retire?
>> Debbie Ikeda: I retired in August of 2016.

>> Carlene Tinker: Sixteen! Oh.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And I ran for the board in November of 2016.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's the board of trustees?
>> Debbie Ikeda: The board of trustees of the state [inaudible]
community college district. So that's the district I work for.
And I ran to get rid of the trustee who represented my college
area because when I was taking the college through the
accreditation process his behavior with the accreditation team
almost sunk us.
>> Carlene Tinker: Ooh.
>> Debbie Ikeda: He -- the team, they make several visits
through this process and during one of the visits they had told
the board of trustees they made a recommendation you need to
delegate authority to the chancellor and stop micromanaging. And
they had made this the year before so now they're coming for the
final team visit to accredit us as a college. And they meet with
the trustee in groups. You can't meet with more than three at a
time otherwise you're violating the Brown Act. So they're
meeting with two other trustees and they ask one of the trustees
-- him, the guy representing my college area -- so, trustee
Patterson, what have you done to improve in this area of
delegating authority to the chancellor and not micromanaging? He
has a stack of paper about, you know, a foot high. And he tells
him, well I didn't have to do anything because your
recommendation was wrong. And he's telling this to the people
who made the recommendation to the team who's going to recommend
us to be accredited. And I'm -- and he spends a half an hour
telling them why they made a mistake. And then the other guy was
even worse. I won't tell you what he said but he was terrible.
And so the team leader -- because they were the last two in the
[inaudible] district office -- comes out to meet with me for the
exit interview and I'm waiting in the chancellor's office. And
the chancellor comes in and says, I just saw one of the trustees
and apparently he told them some bad words and left the
interview because they don't know what they're doing, he told
them. And I said, oh my gosh, we're not going to get accredited.
But the team chair came in to meet with us and said, we
understand you do not control your elected boards -- because
they're elected by the people -- so we're not holding you
accountable for their behavior. But you still have three board
members who do not understand their role. And we are going to
make a recommendation but that's not going to hurt the college
but the college is fine. You did everything you needed to do.
And I'm like -- whew! [Laughter] And the exit interview was

probably one of the best I've ever heard. At the exit interview,
of course the whole college is there. And the team is sitting up
in the front in the team chair. And the whole team stood up and
gave our college a standing ovation.
>> Carlene Tinker: Wow.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Which I've never seen in an exit interview. But
I could tell we were going to get accredited at that point.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And at the June meeting, we were accredited.
June 15th. So we knew. So that fall we knew we could immediately
start. And we changed our name from Clovis Community College to
[inaudible] Community College.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: A lot of people still know us as Willow
International because there's an interesting story on that. As
you know, the campus is located at the corner of Willow and
International.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And when we were going to name that campus, the
mayor at the time was Mayor Allanachi. He said, if you call that
anything with the name -- it's on the Fresno side of Willow. So
he said, if you call it anything with Clovis in it, I am going
to come out against your bond measure. Well, our local bond was
going to build our facilities. Right? So they said, well we
can't call it Clovis anything. So they called it Willow
International. So it said that -- with the understanding that
down the road we would change the name once it became a college.
So I had this whole committee of community members and staff,
etc. to come up with a name. And we came up with five names and
they took these five names to the board of trustees. At the time
I was not on the board. And the five names they came up with -one was North Valley Community College or something. One was
Clovis Community College. Well, the Madera and the Reed and the
Fresno board of trustees members were saying, well we think you
should call it North Valley Community College because they also
hated Clovis. I don't know why people hate Clovis but they did.
And so the Clovis member trustee said, I'll tell you what.
Madera is further north than Clovis so we'll save that name for
Madera. Well, we were meeting in Madera at that time and the
Madera community was there and they all stood up and said, no!
Because they want Madera to be named Madera Community College.

>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah!
>> Debbie Ikeda: They don't want North Valley Community College.
And the trustee was [inaudible] was saying, well, see? Nobody
wants that name, not even people here. So some of the other
trustees who were on there when -- Reedley was at one time
called Kings River Community College. And he said, we made the
mistake of calling Reedley Kings River Community College -- or
changing the name of Reedley to Kings River Community College.
We are not going to make that mistake again. And so they voted
and they named it Clovis Community College. And in fact,
Reedley's name was changed back to Reedley but for about 25
years it was Kings River Community College.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. I remember that.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Because they wanted it to represent people who
went there and they were from all along the Kings River. But the
county of Reedley hated it -- the city of Reedley -- and they
had a big, old billboard right on the corner of Manning and Reed
where the college is. And this guy paid for this sign for 25
years. "Home of Reedley College Forever" is what that sign said.
[Laughter] And you know, that's not inexpensive to pay for those
huge billboards.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah!
>> Debbie Ikeda: So the college made a deal with him that he
would help to pay for all the stationary changes if they moved
the name back to Reedley College. [Laughter] Anyway, they moved
the name back and it will never change again.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh! Well, if we can kind of shift gears a
little bit ->> Debbie Ikeda: Yes!
>> Carlene Tinker: your background in administration counseling
is amazing. I know you've been recognized several times for that
but I want to kind of digress a little bit about JACL.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: You've been very important in that
organization and I'd like to hear a little bit about that. Of
course, that's how you met your husband.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Right.

>> Carlene Tinker: And that's a very important part of that as
well.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Right. Well, so the Fresno Japanese American
Citizens League is -- well, JACL is the oldest civil rights
organization for Asian Americans in the nation. And so in
Fresno, Fresno actually is the oldest chapter in the nation. It
started off as the American Loyalty League in 1923. Tomya Tabe,
Dr. Tomya Tabe, was the first president. And when I was made
president I started going to these JACL meetings for Central
California District Council at the time we had ten chapters. And
they were all very active because the niseis were very active in
JACL. And at that time we were working on getting the redress
bill passed, right? This was in the '80s and that was the big
push for JACL to get the congress to pass the redress bill to
recognize that what was done to the Japanese Americans was wrong
and should never have happened. So there were hearings held
throughout the country and JACL was very involved in setting up
those hearings. And these were Commission on Wartime Relocation
Hearings. And they were held throughout the country and one of
the hearings was held in Chicago and they got former internees
to testify what internment did to the Japanese American
community. And in Fresno we were very active in helping to get
that bill passed because the first republican cosponsor of that
bill was a congressman named Chip Pashayan and he was from
Fresno. And the reason we were able to get him to sign was
because his family farm abutted Tom Shimasaki's family farm
which is down in the Toleri area. And his father was very good
friends with the Shimasaki family. And they agreed to take over
while the family was in camp. And they would go over to this
Japanese family for New Years and they were really good friends.
And farmers help each other out. They always did. That is the
nature of farming. You helped your neighbors out. And so that
was true of the Japanese American farmers, most of them here in
this area. So when they had to leave, a lot of the -- many of
the local farmers agreed to take over their farmers. And so Chip
Bashan remembered that. And he -- so when we were trying to get
the redress bill passed, we -- he was a republican. We had many
JACL republican members and they went to speak to him and they
reminded him. So he was the first republican cosponsor on that
bill and he was from the Fresno area. So the Fresno chapter has
been very active in JACL. And I was one of their presidents
along the way and I kind of remain active with the Central
California District Council in a lot of different ways. For
example, one of the things we did was Fresno is one of the the
few cities -- it's the only city that had two assembly centers,
one at Pine Dale and one at the Fresno Fairgrounds. And so my
husband was very involved in helping to get the funding and to

design it and to lead the community to build the Fresno Assembly
Center Memorial Project and the Pine Dale Memorial Project. And
when we first started the Fresno Assembly Center Project it was
really just a fountain and a plaque and then that was it. Well,
the Fresno Fair director went to Dale and said, you know, do you
think you could update this? So we put a committee together
again and it was sponsored by the Central California District
Council because we're a 501c(3) to take donations. And we built
that up. And Manyo Kunya with the Nisei Farmers League had been
to the Livingston Memorial and he saw the names of everyone who
was interred there on bronze plates and he wanted to do the same
thing at the Fresno Assembly Center. And he said, how much would
it take? And so we got some figures and Dale told him. And he
said he'll raise the money from his group and he did with the
Solana Nisei Farmers. So he raised the money. And Helen
Sharakowa and Nancy -- I forget her last name. Nancy. They were
responsible for getting the names. And so they went to the
Fresno county assessors office or recorders office to try to get
the names of everyone who was interned. And of course they
charge for that. Well, Janette Ishi at the time was the second
in command with Fresno County. And she happened to be in the
office when they walked in. And she heard what they were going
to do and she goes, oh we can do that for free. So she arranged
for them to get the names. And so we have some, you know, more
than 5,000 names on there. And we think we've got everyone but
we're not really sure because the records weren't that great.
But we got everybody we knew and if anyone knows of anybody else
they should let us know because we'll add them on but all the
names are there in bronze and you'll see people going there and
it's just like at the Vietnam Wall in Washington. People take
paper and take a pencil and, you know, shade their family's name
on it so they can take it back and show their family. But all
the family names are on there. And you'll see storyboards up
there of pictures of the Fresno Assembly Center that were taken
of what it was like back in those times. And you know, you can
picture it. They were in barracks in the center of the race
track and it was hot, as was Pinedale. And Pinedale Assembly
Center, the same thing. We were -- and people held from Pinedale
were from Seattle and Washington. Nobody from Fresno was held
there. So the Hirabiashi family -- Gordon Hirabiashi's family
was there. And his brother ->> Carlene Tinker: You mean in Pinedale?
>> Debbie Ikeda: In Pinedale. James Hirabiashi's family was held
there.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.

>> Debbie Ikeda: And so was Norman [inaudible]'s family held
there because they where from -- Sacramento was held there. But
people at the Fresno Fairgrounds were from Fresno for the most
part.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And so we were very involved in building both
those memorials and the interesting thing about the Pinedale one
was when we were doing the dedication we were able to find some
people from Fresno who were actually held there because they
were originally from Seattle. So they helped with the
groundbreaking and Dale's uncle from Sacramento was actually in
that assembly center. So he came down for that. And Norman Etta
came out for that groundbreaking. And ->> Carlene Tinker: I was -- I think.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Were you there? It was pouring rain.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh god, yes. [Laughing] I was in the back of
the tent.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah. And so yeah, anyway, we were involved. So
I helped them a lot of with those. But he was really [inaudible]
->> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Well, I think the JACL has done
wonderful things. You wouldn't happen to have been there when
the committee -- I know May Takahashi was in DC for the redress.
Were you there?
>> Debbie Ikeda: I was not there. No. I was working. I couldn't
go. I mean, no. And I -- no. But I know May went. And Peggy
Liggett might have gone.
>> Carlene Tinker: Ah, yeah.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: I know of a couple other people.
>> Debbie Ikeda: But May was very involved in that redress
movement and helping to raise money for it.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. And then also she was very
instrumental in building the monument and ->> Debbie Ikeda: Yes! Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Which is very moving.
>> Debbie Ikeda: It is very moving.

>> Carlene Tinker: Very moving. Yes.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: She happened to be the pharmacist who
provided the formula for my children when they were born
[laughing].
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well, May was very involved in the Clovis JACL
because she was from Clovis. And she started the Central
California Asian Pacific Women's Group.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And we still are around today. And I'm a member
of that. I was on the board recently. I just got off. But we
raise scholarships for Asian American women to go to college.
And we still do that. Every year we give anywhere from ten to 11
to 14 scholarships, thousand-dollar scholarships, $2,000
scholarships to graduate students, to Asian American women.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Well, you know, Debbie, we're kind of
closing in. I don't know if you're tired of talking but I'm
looking at your resume. I can't even begin to kind of group all
of these things. You've done so many things, not just as a
Japanese American for Japanese Americans through JACL but also
for all students which I think to me that's even more important,
I think. You know, you've had a mission to provide education for
kids who are not so fortunate.
>> Debbie Ikeda: I think community colleges will be the key to
move people. Education, I believe, is the key to move people.
It's mobility upwards. And community colleges -- now we're free.
For anyone who cannot afford to come, you will get a board of
governors waiver. If you fill out the financial aid form which
is free to fill out and you have need, you can come to us for
free. You can come to us for two years for free. Every one of
those units will transfer to a four-year school. And then you
can use your financial aid at the four-year school and take out
a loan to finish up there. There is absolutely no reason not to
be able to get at least the first two years done.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And so I think
the community colleges have the
take anybody who can come to us
the motivation to do what it is
you do it.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right.

for higher education, I think
greatest mission and that is we
and wants to come to us and has
they want to do and we'll help

>> Debbie Ikeda: And take you as far as you want to go. In fact,
we had a woman who was selling burritos on the border, right,
barely spoke English, got to Fresno and went to the adult school
and would drive by Fresno City College every day saying, if only
I can learn enough English to go there. Well, she ended up
coming here and she was in our Pointe program. OK!
>> Carlene Tinker: OK, let's continue. As we were talking about
the role of community colleges ->> Debbie Ikeda: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And you and I both agree how important they
are for ->> Debbie Ikeda: Yes, I was telling you the story about this
woman. So she ended up in our Pointe program. This is how I know
her story. And she was a brilliant, brilliant woman. She did
very well, straight A's. She transferred to Berkeley. She had a
full scholarship there. And she was giving a commencement
address there at Berkeley and someone from Harvard heard her
story because she was telling her story. And they said, if you
want to do graduate work at Harvard, we will give you a
scholarship. Now, what kind of -- where do you get a story like
that? This is a woman who barely finished high school -- I don't
even know if she finished high school because you can go to
community college without a high school degree. And she just -but she was brilliant. And because of that, you know, at the
community college she was able to flourish. So community
colleges have a wonderful mission. And we're the only segment of
higher education that will take anybody and allow you to go as
far as your motivation and abilities will take you. So I think
we have a wonderful mission. So even if I were to do it over
again I would choose to work at a community college.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah. OK. Our project. Oh, first of
all, I want to point out that you and your husband have -- well,
you've talked about Dale's work on the assembly center and you
and your role as the president of JACL and the first time you
came here. Both of you have contributed a great deal to the
Japanese American community. And for that, you have been
recognized several times. Would you like to tell us some of
things that you have been honored with? I think weren't both of
you recognized for these things?
>> Debbie Ikeda: We were. Well, he's from Clovis so we were
given the Clovis Hall of Fame Award. So we were in that. And
Dale's had numerous awards. He's a superior court judge. He
recently retired. But he was given an award from the Fresno

Fairgrounds for his work there. He graduated from Stanford and
he was given the Asian American Alumnus Award from Stanford. And
it's interesting because I'm getting the Asian American Alumni
Award from the University of Illinois of April in this year so
I'll be going back for that.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And locally, I guess Marjorie Mason's Top Ten
Professional Women and Women's Equality Day Award. And -- you
know, a lot of people do a lot of things.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Yeah, so not only just for Japanese
Americans but you have done so much and been recognized for your
contributions to the community.
>> Debbie Ikeda: I think both Dale and I believe in giving back
to the community so we have volunteered to serve in a lot of
different ways. I've served on Saint Angus board of directors
for nine years. I finally termed out after December of this last
year. And I served my last year I was the president of the board
for Saint Agnus. And I enjoyed doing that because I could see
how our students and the cooperation between our community
colleges and the hospital work because many of our students do
their internship hours at Saint Agnus. And so I'd see many of
our nursing students from Fresno City College with their Fresno
City College nursing uniforms on working there at Saint Angus.
So Saint Angus does a really good job in training our health
care workers. And then I served on the Clovis Chamber of
Commerce board and I was their president and won their board of
directors of the year award while I was the director there. But
the Clovis Chamber of Commerce does a lot to promote economic
development in that area. And again, it's a good partnership
between Clovis Community College and the business community
because we have the small development business program for the
state at our college and it's our job to promote small business.
So by being on the chamber board I'm able to reach out to a
number of the small businesses and give -- I was able to give
the director of that program information. And Lori Bennett now,
who is the president of Clovis Community College, I was able to
get her onto the Clovis Chamber of Commerce.
>> Carlene Tinker: Who was that?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Lori Bennett is the new president of Clovis
Community College so she now sits on the Clovis chamber board as
I termed out of that so we maintain that connection which I
think is really good for the college to do. So you want to stay
connected. And even though I'm not working, I stay connected to

the community by continuing to volunteer. In fact, I'll be on
the San Joaquin Town Hall Board of directors starting in May and
they bring guest speakers to the area. And one of the things
that we do is to invite high school students to hear this
speakers, wonderful speakers, for free. High school students and
Fresno State students, not so much community college. So my goal
is to get the community colleges bringing their students. I
don't think they knew about it because I don't think we were
ever invited. I was never told about it when I was president so
I know we're not told. So I'm going to make sure our community
college students are invited.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, absolutely. Oh and those town hall
lectures are just really amazing.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah! I think we bring some wonderful speakers.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh yeah, I've enjoyed every one of them I've
attended this year. Well, I've been stressing a lot about your
community involvement and I want to kind of get back to the
focus of the project which is how do you feel as a Japanese
American living in the San Joaquin Valley? How has it been? Has
it been positive? Has it been negative? Or just how have you
felt?
>> Debbie Ikeda: I think this area has been very welcoming. I
haven't seen very much racism in this area. I think it's a very
diverse community. Fresno is very diverse. In fact, I think
there's 73 different languages last time I heard. It could be
more now spoken in this area. And so we're a very diverse
community and I think we're very open and welcoming and there's
a lot of cooperation between the different communities in
working with one another to bring inclusiveness. And that's
something, you know, I think we want to continue to work at. For
example, we'll go to the Islamic Cultural Center activities. And
in fact, Central California District Council and the JACL gave
the Islamic Cultural Center an award for being a wonderful civil
rights organization and the Islamic Cultural Center in turn gave
us the Spirit of Abraham Award. Right after 9/11 JACL was the
first organization to come out and speak out against racist acts
against the Muslim community and to in fact send Japanese
Americans to various Islamic temples to make sure they weren't
harmed in any way. I mean, this happened in Chicago. My uncle
was telling me about it there and here because and the first
public statement was made by -- the director of the National
Japanese American Citizens League came out with a public
statement saying this should not happen. And it just so happened
Norman Etta was secretary of transportation at the time this
happened. And President George Bush was president and Norman was

able to remind them what happened to the Japanese Americans and
the president was saying, well we're not going to make that
mistake again because there had been talk about rounding up
Muslim Americans. But thankfully that did not happen. But what
I'm starting to see, unfortunately, from our president, our
executive offices, is racism coming out publicly. And it's
because he's making these statements people are starting to feel
it's OK to make racist statements and it's really just an
unfortunate time. So you have a number of civil rights groups
speaking up against that and trying to ensure things like that
don't happen. And in California we're lucky. There seems to be a
push against that type of outright racism but that is not
necessarily the truth around the United States.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Unfortunately. Now, getting back to
your own perception, this is always interesting to me because I
think about it personally. How do you identify yourself? Let's
say do you identify yourself as an educator first? Or does
Japanese American come first? Or how does the role of ethnicity
come in your perception?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well I know I'm a Japanese American educator.
That's how I consider myself. Even there are people who are
starting to call me a politician because I'm a trustee and I was
elected. But I would never consider myself a politician. I am
always an educator first. And so but we look different. And I am
proud of the fact that I am a Japanese American and I think the
values that my ancestors brought to this country and their hard
work and their value of family are something that I continue to
carry on and I hopefully spread it to my own children. I think
immigrants bring their cultures with them and they just
strengthen the United States. They don't hurt the United States.
And immigrants bring hard work and those values to us. You know,
anyone who's willing to walk a thousand miles to get here,
they're committed to coming here and they're committed to
working hard to be successful and you will find most immigrants
work hard to be successful.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, well your ->> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah. And actually I feel very fortunate
because I know that I am standing on the shoulders of those who
came before me. Were it not for my grandparents and my parents,
you know, my husband and I would not be where we are today.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right. That's right. But your parents
and their parents did experience racism and discrimination.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Oh, absolutely.

>> Carlene Tinker: But fortunately we've been able to go beyond
that and -- Yeah, you know, as a child in an internment camp
sometimes -- I don't feel this way often but sometimes -- I
think am I a second class citizen? You know? So I'm wondering if
Dale's parents, your parents, you know, they were in camps. How
did they feel? You know? You're fortunate that you were not in
one.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes, yes. No. I never experienced that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yes. OK. Let's see. What else do I want
to ask you? I always like to ask my interviewees how would they
like to be remembered. What is your -- what would you like your
legacy to be?
>> Debbie Ikeda: As a person who contributed back to the
community in a way that helped other people rise up through the
social mobility ranks, really, and make a good life for
themselves.
>> Carlene Tinker: And I think you have done that. I think you
really have. I really appreciate all that you've done, that you
and Dale have done. I look at your resume, I think, my gosh,
where did this lady have time to breathe? I mean, it's
incredible. How many people have the time for it, have the
energy first to do all of this?
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well, you know, I had a very supportive family
and that helps.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah. And your kids have been. Very
successful and I understand one of them is getting married soon.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes! In may.
>> Carlene Tinker: In May? Yeah, my goodness.
>> Debbie Ikeda: She's marrying a young man of Greek origin
who's an attorney, very involved with the Greek orthodox church.
>> Carlene Tinker: Now is this the one who's an attorney, your
daughter?
>> Debbie Ikeda: No, this is the pharmacist.
>> Carlene Tinker: The pharmacist, OK.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah. He's local. So they're going to stay
local which is nice. His family is here. Her family is here. So
it's nice.
>> Carlene Tinker: How did they meet?

>> Debbie Ikeda: It's funny. They both went to UC Irvine.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yes.
>> Debbie Ikeda: The same year, same age. And but they did not
meet until they came back to Fresno.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh for heaven's sake.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah. And they have mutual friends. Well, she
went to the United Japanese Christian Church and a guy by the
name of Chris Yang went there. His dad is Wally Yang. He's a
doctor, a physician at Kaiser. And they live, like, next door to
Alexi who is Megan's fiance. And his father is a physician at
Kaiser. So the families know each other. And the boys are the
same age. They grew up together. So Chris introduced Megan to
Alexi.
>> Carlene Tinker: [Laughing] Isn't that funny how ->> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah!
>> Carlene Tinker: How that all turns out. Yeah. Well, I had
asked you earlier about, you know, the perception of the country
when we got out of camp was for us to become just like everybody
else. It was this melting pot. And I just talked to somebody
else recently who grew up in Fowler and he thought, oh, we were
a salad bowl. And I said, well what is that? And I guess it's a
new concept.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah. Everybody maintains their own ethnicity
and brings those values to the salad and the taste is better
when you have all these different flavors. I believe that to be
true, too. I think we all maintain our culture to the extent
that we can. You know, unfortunately, with us the stress on our
parents was to speak English.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Speak English, speak English. Because of the
war. And I think the parents thought they would face more
discrimination if they spoke Japanese. So they understand
Japanese but they don't speak it.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yes.
>> Debbie Ikeda: And as a result we neither understand nor speak
it because of course they spoke English to us. So my husband is
a little better than I am. He took Japanese in college.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, did he?

>> Debbie Ikeda: Yes. And so he's a little better than I am. I
actually went to Japanese school, though, when I was young. But
I only went on Saturday's for half a day and we never spoke it
at home. I never practiced it. So you know, there was really no
chance of learning it. I at least know the alphabet in Japanese
and I can pronounce Japanese names which I feel fortunate about
because I'm telling you we had this congressional gold medal
ceremony where we were honoring 50 World War II vets who
couldn't make it to Washington.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, I remember that.
>> Debbie Ikeda: We brought the gold medals back. Well, we
ordered them for them and the spouses to those who had passed to
present them with their own gold medals because we thought they
should have that honor. And we had this guy who is half Japanese
and half white but he's a newscaster to be our emcee. And it was
his job to introduce these. Oh my god! He murdered the names! He
did not know how to pronounce Japanese names.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh!
>> Debbie Ikeda: And it just never occurred to us he would not
know. But of course he doesn't know. He's never had formal
training so he sounded like a Caucasian person pronouncing
Japanese names [laughing]. It was, we were starting to laugh and
people were starting to laugh because the names were just -- in
fact, some of the guys didn't recognize their names.
[ Laughter ]
>> Carlene Tinker: Well, I was in the same. I grew up in a
biracial family and the only time I got exposed to Japanese
language was my mother never spoke it. She could. But my dad was
raised by a caucasian mother and Japanese father and so they
never spoke Japanese at home. So I didn't learn it there. And
when I saw my mom's dad, I mean, we could not communicate. You
know. And I regret that. I do absolutely regret that. Well,
anyway, do you have anything that you'd like to say that I have
not asked about?
>> Debbie Ikeda: No, I think you've asked everything.
[ Laughter ]
>> Carlene Tinker: I hope you had enough water there, too.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Oh yes. Yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Well anyway, Debbie, I just really appreciate
your participation, your graciousness in agreeing to be an

interviewee. Your story as I said will be uploaded into our new
collection for others and particularly for your family to enjoy
-- a permanent record. And certainly as a valuable community
member it is a very important contribution.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Well thank you, Carlene, for doing this work.
Yeah, I'm just sorry we didn't get more of the isseis before
they left. I think Ishino maybe even got some of the isseis.
>> Carlene Tinker: Pardon me?
>> Debbie Ikeda: I think Ishino Hasagawa even got some of the
isseis.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Yeah. Well ->> Debbie Ikeda: So at some point when I have time I want to
hear some of those.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Well, if you can help me with that, I'd
be -- yeah. I actually got one from Hanford -- not just from
Fresno. She's 99 now. She'll be 100 this year. And I got her and
-- oh no, she's a Nisei. I'm sorry.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Yeah, I don't think there's any isseis left.
Yeah, because the nisseis are in their early 80s.
>> Carlene Tinker: No, they're gone. Yeah, yeah. And so -anyway, thank you very much.
>> Debbie Ikeda: Alright, you're welcome.

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Issei to Gosei Oral Histories