Paul Saito interview
Item
Title
eng
Paul Saito interview
Description
eng
Paul Saito talks about his family history starting with his grandparents and their immigrating to the United States, where they were from in Japan, how some of his uncles were educated in Japan as Kibeis, the Pearl Harbor attack and the subsequent evacuation, his experiences in the Santa Anita Assembly Center, the journey from there to Arkansas and life in the Rowher War Relocation Center. He discusses the loyalty questionnaire and returning to California after the war, studying at Cal Poly Pomona, joining the Air National Guard and becoming a landscape architect and designing the Shinzen Garden in Fresno and later starting his own firm doing architecture in Fresno, his work regarding memorials for the assembly centers in Fresno and redress and reparation efforts and his hope for a Japanese Cultural Center to be built in Fresno.
Creator
eng
Saito, Paul
eng
Tinker, Carlene
Relation
eng
Issei to Gosei Oral History Project
Coverage
eng
Fresno, California
Date
eng
12/20/2018
Identifier
eng
SCMS_igoh_00004
extracted text
>> Carlene Tinker: Good morning Mr. Saito, welcome to Special
Collections Research Center. My name is Carlene Tanigoshi
Tinker. And I'm the volunteer coordinator and the first
interviewer for the Issei to Gosei Project, interview project.
It's a new oral history project that we're starting, although we
have others that have already been in existence, but this is
focusing a little bit differently on some of the people who are
being interviewed. So welcome as one of the first interviewees
for this project.
>> Paul Saito: It's a pleasure to be here.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. The focus of the project is to look at
individuals who have lived in the San Joaquin Valley or have-are currently living here. And we want to find out what it's
been like for them as a Japanese-American to have lived in the
valley. And whether or not they have experienced any racism,
prejudice or discrimination. Before we start let me explain how
we arrived at the name for Issei to Gosei interview project.
>> Paul Saito: Okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: There are five generations of Japanese
Americans currently in the United States, and probably more than
that are being born at the very moment. There are five that we
included in this name and we started out with the Isseis. The
Isseis were the first to come to the United States, they came
from Japan. Second were the Niseis who they were children of
Isseis, first-generation born in the United States so that will
be the second part of our project. The third one, the thirdgeneration, are the Sanseis, they're the children of the Niseis,
the second-generation to be born in the United States. Fourth
are the Yonseis, children of Sanseis, the third-generation to be
born in the United States. And fifth are the Goseis, children of
the Yonseis and I believe there are a quite few of them now, the
fourth-generation born in the United States. That instead of
having all of those names in the title of our project we just
said Issei to Gosei.
>> Paul Saito: Okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's the reason why it's called that.
>> Paul Saito: I see.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. The first Isseis as you know, generally
emigrated to the United States in the late 1800's or early
1900's. Most of these people are deceased, however there are
still people coming from Japan so technically they are Isseis as
well.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And may I ask what generation you
belong to?
>> Paul Saito: I'm a sansei.
>> Carlene Tinker: What does that mean?
>> Paul Saito: Well I'm the—I’m sansei, I'm the third-generation
in the United States.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right and then your parents were Nisei?
>> Paul Saito: Nisei yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that correct?
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: I happen also to be a sansei.
>> Paul Saito: Okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: As well. As I said our focus is to look at
your experiences, to tell your story to everybody who might look
at your interview. We are—we are heavily researched by scholars
but also, it's an opportunity for you to share your story with
your family, it's a permanent record of your own history.
>> Paul Saito: Oh okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: So hopefully we achieve that—get that goal or
that aim today. As I said, my name is Carlene Tanigoshi Tinker
and you are Paul Saito. Today is Friday, December 7th, 2018 and
coincidently that is the day that Pearl Harbor was attoattacked.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: The time is 10:28 a.m. So for identification
purposes before we start could you give me your full name?
>> Paul Saito: It's Paul Makoto Saito.
>> Carlene Tinker: Its Makoto?
>> Paul Saito: It's my.
>> Carlene Tinker: A family name?
>> Paul Saito: I don't know where it came from but my parents
must've stuck it in there just to make sure I’m the Japanese
heritage.
>> Carlene Tinker: Actually they didn't do that to me I was
named after Caucasian people. So I don't have a -- unless I,
well I did adopt my maiden name so technically now I have a
Japanese name.
>> Paul Saito: Yes you do.
>> Carlene Tinker: What is your birthdate and how old are you?
>> Paul Saito: My birthday is October 2nd, 1936, that makes me
82 years old.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh wonderful, so you just recently had a
birthday?
>> Paul Saito: Yes, in October.
>> Carlene Tinker: October yeah. And may I ask what your current
address is or where you usually get your mail?
>> Paul Saito: I usually get my mail at my office which is in
the Tower District and it's 1295 North Wishon Avenue in Suite
201, in Fresno, 93728.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay and what is the addressee or does it,
what is the name of your company?
>> Paul Saito: It's called Saito Associates Landscape
Architects, that's the full name.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And right away we've identified what
your career is.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And it sounds like you're still working is
that correct?
>> Paul Saito: Absolutely.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So basically, you're a landscape
architect designer?
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that true?
>> Paul Saito: Exactly.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Okay to make your story complete we're
going to start with your grandparents. Your grandparents on both
sides came from Japan, right?
>> Paul Saito: Yes, they did.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay on your mom—on your dad's side where did
they come from and why did they come to the United States?
>> Paul Saito: Well I don't know too much about my grandparents
because they were all deceased by the time I was born.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh okay.
>> Paul Saito: So there's only one grandparent that was alive
and that was in my father's side, so I had a grandmother but I
never had a grandfather on either side.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: Because I know my mother's side grandparents they
died in their 40's.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh wow.
>> Paul Saito: So she was the eldest girl in the family so she
had to raise her younger, there was 10 children in the family.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh wow.
>> Paul Saito: And so she was the oldest of the,of the girls so
she was kind of put in charge of the family. So a lot of the
younger ones were put in an orphanage and then she kind of went
back and forth bringing them home on weekends and so forth so.
>> Carlene Tinker: And these were your grandparents, right?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, these were my grandparents had passed away
so my mother was taking care of the, the younger kids. And then
my father's side of course I never knew my grandparents because
he was deceased by the time I was born. And all I know is that
when he came to the United States he was a tailor.
>> Carlene Tinker: A tailor?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: And is that what he had done in Japan?
>> Paul Saito: I don't know, I don't know much about -- my
parents never told me much about like where they came from.
>> Carlene Tinker: But that's what he did when he came here?
>> Paul Saito: When he came here, he was a tailor I understand
yes, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay so what do you know what islands they
came from or what cities they came from?
>> Paul Saito: Well I know my father's side came from the
Fukushima area in Japan and then my mother's side was in the
island of Kyushu and Kagoshima.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: So they're kind of far apart as far as two
different cities, they're pretty far apart.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Different islands in fact.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Okay so Fukushima is on the main
island of Honshu.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: And Kagoshima is on the smaller island just
south right?
>> Paul Saito: It's on the southern tip of.
>> Carlene Tinker: Kyushu.
>> Paul Saito: Kyushu.
>> Carlene Tinker: How did – do--do you have any idea how they
got together?
>> Paul Saito: I have no idea.
>> Carlene Tinker: isn’t that something, well that's something
that you'll have to look into.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: What did your mom's side, your grandmother's
side do, were they in agriculture because?
>> Paul Saito: I'm not sure what my mother's side I don't know
hardly any because both of them—both of them are deceased.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: And so my mother never talked about her parents.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'm the same way. My grandpa, my dad's side
died when he was 53 before I was even born, like 10 years before
I was born.
>> Paul Saito: Wow.
>> Carlene Tinker: So I never found out about that side.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, so I have a similar absence of
information just like you so. Anyway, then your mom was she, no
was your mom in this family of 10?
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Now where was she born?
>> Paul Saito: She was born in, I believe in I think it was
Berkeley.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Okay.
>> Paul Saito: I think they were in Northern California then
they moved to Southern California. But I know the first two
older boys were sent to Japan to have schooling by the
grandparents in Japan. And so my mother was the next eldest and
so she took care of the rest of the kids below her. And so they,
I think she lived in Gardena when they lived in Southern
California because one of the—one of the boys was named Jack
Gardena Ono. In fact the second eldest boy was born in Berkeley
his name was Ray Berkeley Ono so I don't know I guess the
parents wanted to identify that they were born in the United
States, I guess.
>> Carlene Tinker: Now interestingly you brought up the fact
that a couple of the kids were sent to Japan to be educated, is
that correct?
>> Paul Saito: By the grandparents.
>> Carlene Tinker: The two eldest children?
>> Paul Saito: Two elder boys yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. And I think there's a special name
given to that kind of person?
>> Paul Saito: Kibeis. Yeah, what are they called?
>> Carlene Tinker: I think kibeis they were called yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Kibeis right. Now did they come back to the
United States?
>> Paul Saito: Oh yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Or did they stay in Japan?
>> Paul Saito: No, they came back here. Yeah, they [inaudible].
Yeah, before the war they came back yeah. I don't know where
they lived, I think they lived in Southern California after
that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, very often I have met people who were
kibeis went over to Japan and then the war broke out and they
got stuck there.
>> Paul Saito: Oh okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: You know so in their case or their cases they
were able to come back.
>> Paul Saito: Right, they were able to come back.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So okay, so your mom was the one who
was in an orphanage?
>> Paul Saito: No, she was the one that.
>> Carlene Tinker: That took care of them?
>> Paul Saito: That took care of the ones that were in the
orphanage so she and her, the next sister below her were kind of
the ones that took care of the kids. The younger mostly were
boys and I think there was, I think about four boys and one
girl.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: That they took care of and then. So they, there's
a shonien I think orphanage in Southern California, Los Angeles
area where they were put into. So my mother kind of raised two
families you know her.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh my goodness.
>> Paul Saito: Her brothers and sisters and my sisters and
myself.
>> Carlene Tinker: Until they were old enough to go on, on their
own.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Now your father, okay your mother's
name was Ono?
>> Paul Saito: Ono yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay your dad, the Saitos what did they do,
what did your dad do, how did he get?
>> Paul Saito: My dad was a nurseryman, he worked for a nursery
in Montebello, they grew indoor plants like philodendrons and
things. And he was in charge of selling that at the market, at
the farm market downtown that was his job. And he worked for a
Japanese gentleman called Uyematsu, Mr. Uyematsu was the owner
of Star Nurseries and so my dad worked for Star Nurseries in
Montebello. But he was the person that sold at the flower
market. They had a place in the flower market where they sold
directly to the florist so.
>> Carlene Tinker: Where was that flower market, was that on 7th
and San Pedro by any chance?
>> Paul Saito: No, that was a vegetable market but this was on
Wall Street.
>> Carlene Tinker: Wall Street.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, Wall Street, I can't remember what streets
but I think between Olympic and something. But it was.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, is that close to 7th and San Pedro I
can't, I don't remember?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, it's not too far away.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: In fact there was, I think one side of the street
was the Japanese growers, on the north -- on the east side was
the American growers. I don't know if it's by design or what but
that's how it worked out. All the Japanese flower growers were
on the west side and the American growers are on the north—on
the east side.
>> Carlene Tinker: Was there a lot of competition between them,
the American and the Japanese growers? Was there any animosity?
>> Paul Saito: I don't think there was that. The Japanese, one
of the biggest florists was San Lorenzo Florists and I think
eventually they moved to Texas but they were one of the big. In
fact my Uncle Jack Ono worked for San Lorenzo Florists on Wall
Street.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Paul Saito: Yes, so.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned. So your parents I don't
remember if I asked you this, how did they get together? Do you
have any idea how mom and dad got together?
>> Paul Saito: Well my dad was, I think he was born in San
Francisco and raised in Oakland.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: And of course my mother was in Berkeley but I
don't, I'm not sure when they met, if they met up there or when
they were down here.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, were they about the same age?
>> Paul Saito: I think my dad was about five years, five or six
years older than my mother.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay and then how many children did they
have, how many siblings do you have, if any?
>> Paul Saito: I just have two twin, I have twin sisters and
myself that's it.
>> Carlene Tinker: Are they younger or older?
>> Paul Saito: They're a year and a half younger than I am.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Are they still alive?
>> Paul Saito: Oh yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, they were schoolteachers.
>> Carlene Tinker: Schoolteachers okay. Okay so then since your
dad worked for the nursery in Montebello that's where you were
born?
>> Paul Saito: I was born in Los Angeles.
>> Carlene Tinker: Los Angeles.
>> Paul Saito: But we were raised in Montebello.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's not too far?
>> Paul Saito: No, it's only less than 10 miles away.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay Montebello as I recall is next to
Monterey Park or no?
>> Paul Saito: Whittier.
>> Carlene Tinker: Monterey Park.
>> Paul Saito: Whittier. Yeah, Monterey Park and Whittier, it's
Monterey Park to the north and Whittier to the east.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Yeah, well right now Monterey Park is
an enclave of a lot of Japanese Americans right.
>> Paul Saito: All the way along the Pomona freeway, all the way
to Diamond Bar is all Oriental, either Chinese or Korean or not
too many Japanese but mostly Chinese.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that right?
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So they sort of took a foothold in that
community?
>> Paul Saito: Oh yes and Diamond Bar in fact Diamond Bar is
split into two school districts and one is the Pomona district
where my niece taught and then the Walnut school district where
the junior high and high school is, is I'd say 70% Asian.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that right?
>> Paul Saito: It's the highest school in the state of
California.
>> Carlene Tinker: Wow.
>> Paul Saito: They got the highest. My sister said I don't know
how many had perfect scores on their SATs.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh wow. That would be pretty challenging if
you were the teacher.
>> Paul Saito: I know.
>> Carlene Tinker: You have to face these really brilliant
children.
>> Paul Saito: I know.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So anyway, you grew up in Montebello
and with your sisters, what did you say they're four years
younger?
>> Paul Saito: A year and a half.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh a year and a half.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And so you guys basically stayed in
Montebello until you went to college I presume?
>> Paul Saito: Yes, well of course we were away for three and a
half years during the war.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Well let's talk about that. When the
war broke out you were probably what seven?
>> Paul Saito: Five, five years old.
>> Carlene Tinker: Only five okay, that's right okay. So do you
have any recollection of that day that Pearl Harbor was bombed?
>> Paul Saito: Well I don't remember the day Pearl Harbor but I
remember the day they evacuated us out of our homes. And I
remember my dad had to stay behind to sell the car and sell the
bikes and everything else. And my uncle came and picked us up in
his car and took us to Santa Anita racetrack where we stayed and
there for what six months in horse stables. So I know that once
the car was driven to Santa Anita, they auctioned off the cars.
And then my dad stayed back to sell and then he came later to
the Santa Anita track where we stayed for I think around six
months or so while they were building the permanent facilities
back east.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right. Well that's pretty vivid, those
are vivid recollections for a five-year-old I'm pretty impressed
with that.
>> Paul Saito: Well I remember Santa Anita very well.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that right? And the reason you got sent to
the assembly center and ultimately to the relocation camp was
because of the executive order that Franklin Delano Roosevelt,
our president at the time signed.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, 9066.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, what was that called?
>> Paul Saito: Executive Order 9066.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right which meant that the West Coast,
California, Washington.
>> Paul Saito: Oregon.
>> Carlene Tinker: Were designated as a military zone and then
because of military necessity certain peoples had to be removed.
They didn't mention Japanese, is that right?
>> Paul Saito: Well there's 120,000 of us that were evacuated.
>> Carlene Tinker: And so it was inferred.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: It wasn't actually blatantly stated that we
were the ones that they were getting rid of?
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay so you were five years old at the time
and when did, let's see you went to Santa Anita and you said you
were in the barns.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, the horse stables. Yes, I remember living
in the horse stables and I remember some of the events going on
in the camp. Yeah, I remember young -- there was not much for us
to do but they had I remember a kite flying contest and my
neighbor across the way made this kite and I thought it was huge
because of course I'm little and the kite was as high as I was.
And I remember he had two of these kites and we won the kite
contest, that's all I remember.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Well now did you go to school, let's see you
were five, could you have gone to kindergarten there or?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, I was in kindergarten at the time so I
don't remember going to school there but I remember some things
happening like one night there was sirens and searchlights
outside the camp and all these I guess the army tanks and
everything were outside. I didn't know what was going on but
evidently one of the gentlemen was kind of inebriated or was
drunk. And I guess he caused a little commotion so they brought
the whole National Guard out.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh [inaudible].
>> Paul Saito: But I remember that one time where there were all
the searchlights and sirens and everything going on. But then I
remember getting on the train and then some of the people that
were behind I remember these ticker tapes where you held on to
it and you throw out when the train left Santa Anita. And I
remember the train ride back to Arkansas, and it was a long
trip.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll bet.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Probably several days.
>> Paul Saito: I think four or five days it took us to get back
to Arkansas.
>> Carlene Tinker: Let's back up to life in Santa Anita. As I
recall not only did some of you stay in horse barns or corrals.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: But did they build barracks as well?
>> Paul Saito: I believe there was some barracks also but we
lived in the horse stables.
>> Carlene Tinker: So very much did you have a mess hall where
people ate?
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay and then did they have church activities
or do you know anything about that?
>> Paul Saito: I don't know about that but I know living in
horse stables we had to go to a latrine, I mean there was no
running water or anything in the barns. So I just remember the
way the barns were our neighbors were, the way the stalls were
hauled they're back-to-back. And so there's an open, I remember
an open so you can look over into your neighbor's room yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: So no privacy?
>> Paul Saito: No privacy at all.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah. Were you treated badly by, I
assume there were guards, is that true?
>> Paul Saito: Oh, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Armed guards?
>> Paul Saito: Outside of the fence yeah. Of course we're little
so we, you know, we didn't, we weren't too observant as our
parents were.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Were you allowed to have any visitors from
the outside?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, I think my mother, we had some real nice
neighbors that lived behind us and she would come to the fence
and talk through the fence and visit us. And she tried to bring
us some things and but I don't, my sisters don't remember
nothing at all hardly you know.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, right.
>> Paul Saito: In Santa Anita but I can remember some of those
things.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So was life really brutal or was it
pretty comfortable, the people who were in charge try to make
you as comfortable as possible?
>> Paul Saito: I don't know.
>> Carlene Tinker: What was your impression?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, I guess I mean we're all Japanese and we're
all you know kids who just, you know how kids are we just all
played together and all that. So but I don't think we were
treated any badly.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay and then just maybe four or five months
later you guys were evacuated right?
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Now I happen to have been in Santa
Anita myself, we got sent to Colorado but you got sent to
Arkansas.
>> Paul Saito: Rohwer Arkansas.
>> Carlene Tinker: Rohwer Arkansas.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: How many days did it take you on that train
to go?
>> Paul Saito: It seemed like a long, like four or five days. It
seems like it took us two days to get through Texas alone. I
think it was but I remember it was a long ride though.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Did you have a compartment or did you
have to set up in like a where they had seats and benches or do
you remember any of that?
>> Paul Saito: No, I think we were all in, I don't know if they
were pullman cars or not but I remember there was, I remember
one thing my sisters had never seen a black man before and the
porters were black. And I remember my sister saying something
about how come your face is black because she had never seen a
black person.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right. I hadn't thought about that
because the blacks hadn't really migrated from the south at that
early—right?.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, but they were working on the trains as
porters I guess.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Now did they have the shades pulled
down? I remember stories about you couldn't have the shades up.
>> Paul Saito: Oh when we went through the cities.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, when you went through the cities.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Did they have armed guards on the train?
>> Paul Saito: I don't remember if there was, there might have
been.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. What did you do for the bathroom, did
they have on the train?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, they had bathrooms on the train yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: But basically, you couldn't take a shower?
>> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: No.
>> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: You don't. But your family was together?
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: You didn't have to get separated?
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay so let's see [inaudible] about that. And
I know when you go through this, when you went through the
cities for people have told me that people would kind of lift
the blinds up to see where they were.
>> Paul Saito: I've heard that before yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: But I guess I wasn't aware of it being a kid.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. But you were supposed to keep the
blinds down?
>> Paul Saito: I see, I heard about that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So anyway you ultimately ended up in
Rohwer. Isn't there another relocation camp in Arkansas?
>> Paul Saito: Yes, Jerome.
>> Carlene Tinker: Jerome.
>> Paul Saito: In fact the Fresno people went to Jerome.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: And then eventually when they closed Jerome, they
came into Rohwer. Because I know the Masada , well Mr. Masada
was in Jerome and then when they closed Jerome and they moved
them into Rohwer because they made Jerome into a POW camp for
German prisoners. So that's why they moved them into Rohwer.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. And Mr. Masada is a very prominent
Japanese American here, I'm glad you brought his name up because
he has lots of stories to tell as well.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, he's one of the stars of Silent Sacrifices
that you saw that video.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: That they made here.
>> Carlene Tinker: Absolutely, that was amazing, amazing. What
was the camp actually like, do you have any recollection of the
area in which it was, like the geography, the plants, the
animals? Do you have any?
>> Paul Saito: Well we had I know on one, on two sides of the
camp, the north and west sides were all forest. And so and then
of course the east side was open and the south side was kind of
open. But I know there was, we were -- I guess there was cotton
fields to the east in the open fields. And I think they allowed
some of our men to go outside and farm out there because I
remember they came in and I know they grew watermelon because
they came into the camps and I remember those huge watermelons
that they're selling off the trucks. And there was a country
store that was outside of the camps and we used to sneak out of
the camps and go there buy a soda because they didn't have soda
in camps so we used to buy the RC Colas and bring it into the
camps. But that was just across the street from the camp.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: So maybe they were, maybe the guards didn't
really think the kids were going to harmful just going across
the street and get some soda and come back right. But I remember
we went fishing to one of the tributaries of the Mississippi
River. I remember going fishing and then camping in the forest
out there, we used to go camping. They used to take us out and
instead of having regular tents they had mosquito tents. Because
I mean that was terrible, they had mosquitoes and [inaudible]
and I mean all these kinds of things that would.
>> Carlene Tinker: And probably deadly snakes like cotton
moccasins and is that true?
>> Paul Saito: I guess there were snakes too but I think they
were closer to the river part you know.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: But we were in the forest you know I remember
going out camping.
>> Carlene Tinker: Do you?
>> Carlene Tinker: Happen to know what's -- what kind of trees
they were in the forest?
>> Paul Saito: No, I -- my background now, I should know, but at
that time, I don't -- I know there just is a big forest around
us, and in fact, the biggest job for the men in the camp were
lumberjacks.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: They used to cut down the lumber, and my dad -- I
know he was a fireman in the camp.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, your dad was?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, and he was a block manager of our camp. We
were block 13, and he was the block manager.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, what did the block managers -- what
were they responsible for?
>> Paul Saito: Well, they kept track of all their families, and
I guess they were the person that had to give all the
information to the people living in the camps and in the block - was just responsible for the block, making sure that
everything was okay. Between the WRA, the War Relocation
Authority -- so he was -- I guess the intermediary between the
WRA and the camp -- I mean, our camp, our block that we were in.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: So, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, each of the camps, I understand, were
divided into blocks.
>> Paul Saito: Yes, right, right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Do you happen to know how many blocks you had
in—in Rohwer?
>> Paul Saito: I'm not sure how many, but we were block 13, I
remember, and then ->> Carlene Tinker: -- block 13.
>> Paul Saito: -- and our address was 13-4F.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and the 4F referred to your little
apartment? Is that right?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, the -- there was essentially two, four, six
-- yeah, there was, like, six rows, two, two, and two, and then
-- so we're the fourth -- the fourth barracks. So that's why we
were 13-4, and then we were the last apartment, and were F. So
that's how we got our address, of 13-4F.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right. And then, as I recall -- I
don't know if your camp was like this, but the barracks had
apartments that were of varying size, depending on the number of
people who were going to live in those little apartments. Is
that kind of what you remember? Like, if you had a family of six
people ->> Paul Saito: Oh, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- you'd have a bigger apartment.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, I guess so, yeah. We had one apartment, I
know, but yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And then, your sisters were alive at that
time, weren't they?
>> Paul Saito: Yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: So you had your sisters. That's two, and you
-- that's three, and your dad and mom -- that's five people.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, so you probably had a larger one.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, and then we had the -- and then, across -in the center of the block was the latrines, and the laundry
rooms that were back-to-back. Latrines were on one side, and
then the washroom was there. And then two -- just across the way
from that was the mess hall, where we had our meals. So --
>> Carlene Tinker: It sounds like -- very much like ours, in
Amache in southeastern Colorado. So imagine they didn't have a
lot of time to plan these out.
>> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: So maybe they used the same ->> Paul Saito: Same plan, yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- to set these up. And getting back to your
dad, you said he was the fireman as well.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Did he stay in camp a long time with
your mom, or did he ever leave?
>> Paul Saito: No, he left. He left -- I can't remember -- after
we were in a year or two. And then they allowed them to go back
to work, because, you know, he was only making $18 a month as a
fireman. So he left, and he left back to New Jersey at Seabrook
Farms. So he was working at Seabrook Farms for -- I don't know
how long, and then he came back. Then he left again and went to
Evanston, Illinois, where he worked at a nursery in Evanston,
Illinois. So he left twice.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, but your mom and your sisters and you
stayed.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, we -- right, exactly.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. What did he do at Seabrook? I don't
remember what Seabrook does.
>> Paul Saito: I think they're -- they package foods and stuff
like that. I think they're -- in fact, a lot of -- I've heard of
other people that worked at Seabrook Farms from the camps. So
they must've hired a lot of Japanese-Americans in Seabrook.
>> Carlene Tinker: That went there.
>> Paul Saito: Yes, mm-hmm.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. I've heard of other people as well, and
I don't know if they're still in existence.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, you mean the -- Seabrook Farms? I don't know
if they are or not.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, and that'd be interesting to find out.
>> Paul Saito: Mm-hmm.
>> Carlene Tinker: Now, when you were in camp, you would've been
about ->> Paul Saito: Five.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- five, six. Okay, so you were there three
years?
>> Paul Saito: Yes, I was in from kindergarten, first, second,
and third grades.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, so basically, you and your mom and your
sisters stayed there.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Your dad came back.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And then you came back to California.
>> Paul Saito: Right, right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Let's get back to Rohwer. What was school
like for you? Do you remember anything about school?
>> Paul Saito: I just remember going to school, and I don't
remember much -- learning much in -- but I'm -- we must've
learned a lot more than we -- when we came back, because it was
kind of an adjustment to get acclimated to California once we
got back from the schools back there. But a lot of the teachers
were Hakujin teachers, too.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, what does that mean, Hakujin?
>> Paul Saito: That means Caucasian.
>> Carlene Tinker: Caucasian? Okay.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And they probably -- from what I've read,
they probably made a lot more money than the people in the
camps. They probably made ->> Paul Saito: Yes, I'm sure they did, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- yeah, because the maximum you could earn
in camp, if you were, like, Japanese, Japanese-Americans, only
$19, if you were professional.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, is that right?
>> Carlene Tinker: And much less if you were, say, a ditch
digger or whatever.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: But the maximum was only $19.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, I know the fire chief was Chief Mails . I
remember his name, and he was a really nice man, because he let
me get onto the fire engine, and -- and, yeah, he was really
nice to the Japanese.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. What was the climate like in -- at
Rohwer?
>> Paul Saito: Humid.
>> Carlene Tinker: Humid?
>> Paul Saito: Humid, and it rained sometimes -- sometimes, it
was flooded. You know, the barracks are on piers, so when it
flooded, it was -- water was underneath the -- I mean, it was ->> Carlene Tinker: Oh, your barracks were on piers?
>> Paul Saito: -- yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, so water could go ->> Paul Saito: Yeah, it could, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- yeah. Because in ours, we had cement
floors, or brick floors.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, you did?
>> Carlene Tinker: We had concrete perimeters -- foundations.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, you did?
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, so water would not have been able to do
that.
>> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: Of course, it also wasn't that humid in
Amache, because we were in the high plains.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, sure, yeah, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: A lot different ->> Paul Saito: It was terrible. I mean, the weather
and, I mean, we're used to dry heat here. And being
humid conditions, and then -- and all the bugs, you
triggers, and the chiggers, and the mosquitoes, and
it was very prevalent over there, compared to here.
was humid,
in that
know, the
all that --
>> Carlene Tinker: -- but it wasn't like that all year long.
Didn't you get snow sometimes, or ->> Paul Saito: It snowed once. I think it snowed ->> Carlene Tinker: -- oh, was that all?
>> Paul Saito: -- yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's right. You were pretty south,
weren't you?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, we were south.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, in Arkansas. So during camp, your dad
was a block manager.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: So he probably was sort of supportive of the
government. Is that true, or could you say that?
>> Paul Saito: Well, I don't know. I don't think ->> Carlene Tinker: In other words, how did he feel about being
there, and being incarcerated?
>> Paul Saito: -- well, I knew he -- I know he didn't like Santa
Anita, because he says, "I wish that place burned down," after
the war.
>> Carlene Tinker: He said what?
>> Paul Saito: He mentioned after the war, about Santa Anita -he said, "I wish that place burned down," because he -- I guess
he had some pretty bad memories of Santa Anita. And then, of
course, back in Arkansas -- of course, we were -- we couldn't
get out, because you had -- we had those guard towers, and
barbed wire fence around. And -- but we didn't have barbed wire
fence on the east --no, on the west and the north, because it
was all forest. You had nowhere to go. I mean, it was just -it's -- it was pretty well controlled there.
>> Carlene Tinker: I see.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: I see. Now, at one point,
'43, '44, there were these loyalty questions
administered. I think that was the intention
to actually -- originally, Japanese couldn't
military.
sort of I guess
that were
of the government
go into the
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, but then that changed.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: They probably needed people to go in the ->> Paul Saito: That's true.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- running out of people. And then, also,
there was some intent to allow people to leave and -- I think
the government actually realized that camps were a bad idea.
They had made a mistake.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: So first, these questions came out. They were
called loyalty questions, and they are referred to as 27 and 28.
Do you have any recollection of what those are?
>> Paul Saito: No, but I remember this group called The No-No
Families, which didn't sign the petition or whatever it was, and
they were sent to Tule Lake because they were -- figured as
they're enemy aliens, I guess. They were considered that. And I
remember some of the -- I remember one gentleman that was sent
to Tule Lake. I guess he was one of that -- where he wanted to
go back to Japan. So they sent those kind of people back to Tule
Lake, too, and they were all -- in fact, my friend George Takei,
the actor ->> Carlene Tinker: Oh, yeah.
>> Paul Saito: -- his parents were No-Nos.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, were they?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, and in fact, he went to -- he was sent to
Santa Anita, and also to Rohwer, Arkansas. So when he came here,
and when I invited him to speak to the group here in Fresno, we
found that we were about the same age, and we went to the same
places. He went to Santa Anita, and he went to Rohwer, Arkansas,
but the only thing -- difference was we stayed in Rohwer, and
his parents were sent to Tule Lake.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned. I didn't remember that. Let
me briefly read those questions for you.
>> Paul Saito: Okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: Number 27, "Are you willing to serve in the
armed forces of the United States on combat duty or wherever
ordered?" That's 27. Twenty-eight, "Will you swear unqualified
allegiance to the United States of America, and faithfully
defend the United States from any and all attack by foreign or
domestic forces, and forswear any form of allegiance to the
Japanese Emperor, to any other foreign government, power, or
organization?" Well, you can see the people -- the Isseis who
were not allowed to be citizens.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, we -- we forgot to mention that early
on, or I forgot to mention that. What did they do? You know, if
they said yes to this, they would be without a country.
>> Paul Saito: That's true.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, and
yes to that, you know, maybe
to protect their parents and
really caught in a bind, you
then the other one --if they said
the young men were probably trying
so forth. You know, they were
know.
>> Paul Saito: Yes, that's true.
>> Carlene Tinker: So -- and some people just, you know, didn't
answer at all, but the No-Nos ->> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- they're the ones, as you very carefully
and very correctly identified -- they were labeled as enemies,
people to be sent away, and then some people actually wanted to
expatriate.
>> Paul Saito: Right, to go back to Japan.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, and Tule Lake -- let's just kind of
talk about that for a second. Tule Lake was kind of a
segregation camp. They actually had a prison there, yeah, and
some of the people who wanted to go back to Japan became very
militant and very public. And there was a lot of brutality, and
a lot of brawls and so forth. That was a very tough, tough camp
to ->> Paul Saito: I bet.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- yeah, yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Mm-hmm.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, fortunately, neither you or I were able - I mean, had that experience.
>> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, anyway, let's get back to coming back to
California. When did your parents come back to California?
>> Paul Saito: It must've been right after the war -- 1945, was
it? Yeah, and we -- I remember leaving Little Rock. We took the
train from Little Rock, Arkansas. We were going to Denver,
because my relatives were there. You know, the Onos and
Yorimotos [assumed spellings] were in Denver, so we had planned
to go from Rohwer to Denver, and then back to California. But I
remember on the train ride from Little Rock to St. Louis,
Missouri, the train was packed, and we were sitting on
suitcases, because there was no more seats. And that -- but the
car behind us was a black car, and so my father had asked the
conductor if we could -- because it was almost half-empty. So
there was just -- well, you know, we don't mind going back, and
we don't -- better than sitting on the suitcases in the -- and
so, my dad asked the conductor, and they wouldn't let us go back
there to sit with the black in the black car, even though it was
half-empty. So that's when segregation was really heavy.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh.
>> Paul Saito: So I remember that so clearly.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my goodness. Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Yes. So -- well, one thing living in Rohwer,
Arkansas, and -- we knew what real segregation was, because I
remember there was separate bathrooms and everything. And it
just was a different world down there, compared to where we
lived in California.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: So we learned about segregation.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Were you often off of camp, or were you
-- no?
>> Paul Saito: Well, just when we snuck out to go get some soda
pop, but that was ->> Carlene Tinker: But that's -- [laughter] ->> Paul Saito: -- we were kids, yeah [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: -- okay, so when you were -- when you came
back to California, you returned to Montebello.
>> Paul Saito: Yes, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, so you grew up there, and you went to
school there.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: And how were your experiences in school?
>> Paul Saito: Well, when I first came back, I was going to be
in the fourth grade, and I had problems with the teacher. And I
don't know what I did, but I was sent to the cloakroom. And I
remember -- I don't know. I guess my folks were out of town or
something, and my aunt and uncle had to come pick me up at
school. And this -- I really -- I thought this teacher was
really a you-know-what. I could have her name -- I could call
her a name, but anyway, I had a rough time in the fourth grade
adjusting to ->> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: -- the new environment.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: So fortunately -- and during the war, my dad -- I
told you he worked at Star Nurseries, and Uyematsu's , but the
person that took over the Star Nurseries was a gentleman named
Wally Naphus . And he was a young man at the time, and he was
just married. And so, at that time, they moved into our home in
Montebello. And so, they kept up the FHA payments and everything
while we were gone.
>> Carlene Tinker: Wow.
>> Paul Saito: And so, we were lucky that that -- and then,
their daughter was born while they were in our -- in our home in
Montebello.
>> Carlene Tinker: Mm-hmm.
>> Paul Saito: So my dad wrote a letter to Mr. Naphus and said
we were coming back, and so Mr. Naphus -- they were -- they're
really nice people. And so, he was -- he had taken over as
running Star Nurseries for Mr. Uyematsu. And so, when he -- when
we came back, he had moved into an apartment, and let us come
back into our home. And so, we got to know them very well. Of
course, my dad didn't have a job, and so he became a gardener.
And so, he's done gardening for years until we went back to work
when Uyematsu came back to take over Star Nurseries. Then my dad
came back to Star Nurseries.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, okay.
>> Paul Saito: But anyway, Mr. Naphus -- they built a home on
the bluffs in Montebello, and his wife was a schoolteacher. And
so, my mother had asked Mrs. Naphus if she would work with me,
tutor me during the summer months. So I used to ride my bike all
the way to -- it was a couple miles away. I used my -- to their
home, and she used to tutor me during the summer months. So when
I went to the fifth grade, I had this real nice teacher, Mrs.
Oliver . I remember her, and so I -- my grades picked up, and I
was doing real well. So I'm walking down the hall, and this old
lady that was in the fourth -- teacher comes up. She says, "Let
me see your report card, you know [laughter]." And when she saw
it, she was shocked to see my grades were different than when it
was her [laughter]. But anyway, that was -- I remember that so
well, just [laughter] ->> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and then you went to high school there,
and ->> Paul Saito: -- junior high and high school.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- yeah. What kind of things did you do in
high school? Were you one of several Japanese-Americans, or were
there very few?
>> Paul Saito: My class, there was only one other girl that was
Japanese.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, really?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, in my sister's class, I think there was
maybe half a dozen.
>> Carlene Tinker: Was that to your advantage or disadvantage,
do you think?
>> Paul Saito: I'm not sure. Kind of hold up. I'm going to need
some water [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, go ahead. You okay?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah. Little dry there.
>> Carlene Tinker: So anyway, was that to your advantage or
disadvantage, do you think, being one of the few Japanese
students?
>> Paul Saito: Well, fortunately, our neighbors in Montebello
were from Kansas. So they weren't used to the -- all the
prejudice that was going on on the west coast. So they had -one boy was my age, and one was my sister's age. And so, they
used to -- we used to go to school together. So they were kind
of protective whenever I was maybe called names and things. They
were there beside me, and so I was lucky that we had real good
neighbors. And we still -- well, I don't know them -- I think
they passed on by now, but anyway, there was some times they
would want to pick fights with you and things. But they were
always there, and then I made some good friends in school. And I
remember there was still some prejudice. Because I was walking
down the street with one of my friends on another street, and
this lady comes out of her house and says, "Hey, Jim." He says,
"I'm going to tell your mother you're walking around with that
Jap, you know."
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: And so Jim went back and told his mother, and she
says, "That woman -- she really -- that woman didn't know what
she's talking about." And so, you know, we had some good
protection there at school.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. But that didn't happen very often?
>> Paul Saito: No, not that often.
>> Carlene Tinker: Fortunately.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Fortunately. Okay, then what kind of
activities were you in in high school?
>> Paul Saito: Well, I ->> Carlene Tinker: Did you play sports, or were you in the --
>> Paul Saito: -- yes. I was in ->> Carlene Tinker: -- were you a good student by this time
[laughter]?
>> Paul Saito: -- well, I was into music and sports.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: From junior high, I -- well, when I was going to
-- I guess when I was in elementary school, my mother sent me to
a guitar teacher. So I learned how to play a guitar, but it was
the wrong kind of guitar. it was a steel guitar, and all you do
is play cowboy music [laughter] or Hawaiian music, you know. And
so, I dropped -- when I got to junior high -- my uncle had left
a coronet, which was a trumpet, and so I took that. And I saw a
-- I joined the orchestra in junior high. So I -- my -- I played
in orchestra -- the trumpet. I learned how to play the trumpet
and E-flat horn, but when I got to high school -- but also, when
I was there, I played sports. I played, you know, football,
basketball, and baseball, just common in junior high. Then, when
I got to high school, I only decided to play football, but then
I joined the band, the marching band. And so, we -- so I played
in the marching band in high school, and then I played football
-- what they called B-football, which is -- I wasn't big enough
to play on the varsity, so I ->> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that was, yeah, according to size.
>> Paul Saito: -- size, yeah. They have A, B, and C. I wasn't
big enough for varsity, so I played B football for three years,
and their -- Kobayashi was my coach. And he was a very stern
person, and he fought in the war. And he was in the 442nd.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: And you remember the picture they made, "Go For
Broke"?
>> Carlene Tinker: Yes.
>> Paul Saito: He was in that picture. He had a small part of it
[laughter]. But anyway, he was my football coach, and he was
very good. And he really put out good teams. So between that,
high school, and then -- in my senior year, I was able to join
the -- they had a dance band called The Esquires. So I joined --
so I played in The Esquires, but we also had to play -- if I
belonged to that, I also had to be in the marching band. So
football games, at halftime, we had to, you know, play. And then
I was also a member of the East Los Angeles Lions' Club Band,
and we marched in parades, and we marched in, like, Santa Claus
Lane Parade in Hollywood, and the Armistice Day Parade in Los
Angeles. And so I got a lot of marching in, which came in handy
later when I went to basic training [laughter]. That's when -so you learn how to march.
>> Carlene Tinker: You were in [laughter] ->> Paul Saito: Yeah [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: -- so you went to high school, and then did
you go to college at all?
>> Paul Saito: I went to -- yes, I went to community college. It
was Pierce -- it was called Pierce School of Agriculture in
Canoga Park, and then they changed it to Pierce JC , and now
it's a -- it's community college.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and you went there for two years?
>> Paul Saito: I went there for two years, and because it's so
far from Montebello, I stayed in the dormitory there. And then,
the thing is, when I went to register during the summer months
before school started, my friend who was on the varsity football
team went with me. And so, I went to the dean, and I said,
"Since I'm going to go to school here, I'd like to register. I
need to register for one of the dormitories." There was nine
dorms, and he says, "Well, you have to put your name on the
writing list." I says, "Okay." So I put name -- and he says, "By
the way, do you play football?" And I said -- and my buddy, who
played on the varsity, says, "Oh, yeah, he plays football," but
he didn't know I played on the B team. I didn't play on the
varsity team. He said, "Well, why don't you go up, talk to the
coach? He's up there at the gym." So we went up, talked to the
coach, and he was small like me. And he says, "My name is Tex
Chasson . I just came from L.A. High School, and I'm the new
coach here at Pierce College. We're going to start a new
football team, and we could use all the men we can to recruit
for this team." And I says, "Well, you know, I only played B
football." And then he says, "Well, at least you played B
football," and then my -- of course, my buddy here, he got a
scholarship to USC as a -- you know [laughter], as a -- so he
said, "Yeah, he plays football." And so, he says, "Well --" he
says -- so I signed up for the football. So I went back to Dean
Kersey , and I said, "Well, I guess I signed up for the team."
And he says, "Well, in that case, you're going to have to come
two weeks before school starts for spring practice, and so
you're going to have to have some -- you're going to have to
have a dorm. So why don't you go up and pick yourself a --" so I
got to pick the best dorm I wanted [laughter] just because I
played football. I got to pick the dormitory that I wanted.
>> Carlene Tinker: You had no idea it was going to come in
handy.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, so that -- so I was able to play two years
of college football at Pierce.
>> Carlene Tinker: Well, did you stay -- did you go straight on
to another four-year school, or ->> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- did you have a -- did you go into the
service at any time?
>> Paul Saito: Well, yeah, when I was in -- oh, okay, when I was
at Pierce, it's a two-year college, and then I signed up for
ornamental horticulture, because my dad was a nurseryman. And
so, while I was there, I liked the landscape design class. And
so, I kind of switched to -- I -- since I don't' want to be a
nurseryman, I want to be a landscape architect. But the only
school that taught landscape architecture in California -accredited school was UC Berkeley. So I was scheduled to go to
UC Berkeley upon graduation, but my senior year at Pierce, I
understand that Cal Poly was going to have an accredited course
in landscape architecture in Pomona. So that gave me the
opportunity to stay in southern California, live at home, and go
to school at Cal Poly Pomona. So that's what I did. I
transferred to Cal Poly, and I could live at home, and -- rather
than going to Berkeley, where I'd had to live up there. So I
decided to stay three years at Cal Poly, so I -- because I -- if
I graduated in two years, I would've missed my sophomore and
freshman courses, which I would like to have, like history, and
perspective drawings, and things like that I would've missed. So
I decided to stay for three years, and the other thing was -because they needed football players, I signed up for the
football team. So I was able to play -- they allowed me to play
three years of college football. So I played actually five years
of college football.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, for heaven's sakes [laughter].
>> Paul Saito: Well, I was going to only play for two years, and
-- but the senior -- my senior year, they said that the team was
going to go to Mexico City to play two games. I said, "Well, I'm
staying another year, so I can go to Mexico [laughter]." So I
stayed an extra year to play my senior year. We went to -played two games in Mexico City.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Paul Saito: So 10 days in Mexico -- while, that's -- so
that's a free ride down there, you know. It's all expenses paid
[laughter], room and board.
>> Carlene Tinker: So you graduated, then, from Cal Poly Pomona.
>> Paul Saito: Pomona, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and with a landscape ->> Paul Saito: Architecture degree.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- architect major, okay.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Did you immediately get a job as a landscape
architect, or did you -- at some time or another, I recall you
went into the service.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, yes. My senior year at Cal Poly, I signed up
with the -- I joined the Air National Guard in Ontario. So while
I was in school, my -- before I graduated, I was going to
reserve meetings. It's one week in a month. And so, when I
graduated from Poly, I had to go to basic training down in San
Antonio, Texas. So I had to spend 10 weeks in -In San Antonio at Lackland Air Force Base to take my basic
training, so I was there for 10 weeks. And like I said, the
marching came in handy because that's all you do is you're
marching, and you march through dinner, you march through the
bivouac, you march, everywhere you march. And so the way,
because of my marching skills, after the first week, they, you
know, what they try to do is they try to tear you down. I mean,
they want this one and that, and you've got to say yes, sir or
no, sir, or, I mean, if you don't, you're and here I'm a
college graduate, and most of these young guys are high school
graduates. So you're among all these kids and you're taking all
these orders from this, this sergeant that's calling you names
and calling you “nip” and everything else, just to get your, get
your goat. So when you take it then, so it was a first week,
they have a, they have the you have four columns, and they go
by height, and then you go down like this. That's how they're so
the tallest guys are in the front row, and they're called the
element leaders. And then there's a right guard, and he's the
one that takes you around, you know, when the sergeant is there,
he's the one that takes you everywhere, the right guard. And
he's the best marcher. And so after the first week, he fired him
and made me the right guard. So I had to take, I had to take him
to all the meals, you know, like on weekends when the sergeants
aren't there or what they call “TIs,” the training instructors,
when they're not there, then I'm in charge. Then also, we have a
barracks. There's like 72 men I think per barracks, and 36
upstairs and 36 downstairs. And so the right guard also becomes
the barracks chief, so I’m in charge of the barracks also. So
you assign all your troops to latrine duty or whatever. And so
that's, that's one advantage, that you're in charge.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, yeah.
>> Paul Saito: So, but, anyway, so you had to take them to
meals, or you had to take them to bivouac. Now, bivouac is where
you take your, you go through the obstacle course.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Then we had to go through that thing I think
three or four times. And, of course, the weather there was so
hot, the red flag was up almost every day we were there, when
it's over 95 degrees and the humidity is up in the 100%. And so
they take us out to bivouac like 6:00 in the morning. So you get
through the obstacle course by 8:00, you know, before it gets
hot.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, so that was quite an experience, being in
the Air Force training down there.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, basically that's how you served your
[military experience] you [were a] volunteer.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, I volunteer.
>> Carlene Tinker: And how long were you there?
>> Paul Saito: Six years. I served six years in the Reserve.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, but then in the meantime, you were
pursuing your profession, is that correct?
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: So you started, you started in southern
California as a landscape architect.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, when I graduated from Cal Poly, I got a job
with the City of Los Angeles, Recreation and Parks Department.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's right.
>> Paul Saito: As a landscape architectural assistant at the
time. And then, but when I graduated, you know, I applied for
the job, but I had to take a test, a test. The city gives you a
civil service test. So they sent a test down to the testing
officer in San Antonio at Lackland Air Force. So I took my test
in San Antonio at the Lackland Air Force Base. And when I came
back, then I took the oral interview for the job at, for Los
Angeles. So I worked there for five years as a landscape
architectural assistant. And at the same time, I was going to
Reserve one weekend a month and a two week summer camp.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: For six years. But the city, the government, they
allowed me to go to a two week summer camp. And they paid me.
They paid me a salary even though I was gone for two weeks.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: And then when I after five years, I got a job
with the City of Anaheim, and I became their landscape
architect, and they and I was still going to Reserves. So they
did the same thing. They allowed me to go to summer camp for two
weeks.
>> Carlene Tinker: How accommodating.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: And then I was still getting my pay.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: So, it was the good thing about working for
civil service, at least you were getting paid even though you
were serving your country. So, anyway, and Anaheim was
>> Carlene Tinker: It was a “twofer.”
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, exactly.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, right. And so my recollection from our
previous conversation is that you gradually became an architect
of your own. I mean, you had your own company. And I think just
to summe-, very quickly, bring you up to where you became a
transplant to Fresno, when did you actually come to Fresno as an
architect? And how did you get here?
>> Paul Saito: I worked for the City of Anaheim for eight years
as a landscape architect. And then I left in 1972 to form my
private practice in Orange County. And then 1972 is when I left
the City of Anaheim, was the year that the City of Fresno hired
us to do the Japanese Garden in Fresno. And that's where I first
became familiar with Fresno. I had never been to Fresno. And we
came up for the interview, and then we got the job to do the
garden.
>> Carlene Tinker: Who actually initiated the idea of the
Japanese Garden? It's now called the Shinzen Garden, right?
>> Paul Saito: Right, right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Who actually came up with that idea?
>> Paul Saito: Well, there was a group of Japanese citizens in
Fresno, Issei and Nisei, that formed this committee called the
Japanese Garden Committee.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: And they were trying to get a Japanese Garden.
Before the war, there was a Japanese Garden in Roeding Park.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: And so after the war, of course, everything
disappeared. The lantern and everything disappeared in the
parks, because they wanted to have a garden in Woodward Park,
which was a brand new park.
>> Carlene Tinker: I see.
>> Paul Saito: So this committee was formed for a couple of
years, and I guess they got enough backing to get the city to
come up with some money to do a park. And so they went out,
there was a gentleman here, a local person, landscape contractor
named Kodo Matsubara, who was a landscape designer and designed
private Japanese Gardens privately. And this ISSEI wanted him to
design the garden. But this City of Anaheim, I mean the City of
Fresno, the Parks and Recreation director Howard Holman says, we
need to have a licensed landscape architect to design this
garden.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: So since Mr. Matsubara
just a contractor.
was unlicensed, he was
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: So they went out with a request for a proposal
throughout the State of California to different firms that had
Japanese surnames. And so we got one of those.
>> Carlene Tinker: I see. So that's actually how you got here.
>> Paul Saito: That's how we got the, we got the letter
proposal, and we sent in our proposal, and then we were asked to
come for an interview. And so I, a friend of mine I had never.
I had been to Japan a couple of times, but never designed a
Japanese Garden. But my friend, there was a Japanese Deer Park
in Buena Park, and a friend of mine, Shiro Nakagawa was the
curator for that park. And he was a friend of mine. And I said,
and he was trained in Japan and graduated from Tokyo
Agricultural University in landscape architecture. So I asked
Shiro, I said, would you be interested in helping me design this
garden in Fresno? So he said yes. So he came up with the
interview with me. And we had to interview two nights in a row.
Once, the Japanese Garden Committee. And next to the Parks and
Recreation Committee. So the first night, I gave the
presentation in English and he gave it in Japanese so that the
ISSEI could understand what we were going to do. And so the next
night, we had to stay overnight and give a presentation at the
Parks and Recreation. So, when we got back to, back to Orange
County, we got a call that we had gotten the job. So that's how
we started in 1972, designed the Shinzen Garden in 1972, when we
started the design, and we finished in, I think in 1975, we
finished designing. The construction started in '75, and they
opened the garden in 1981.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, wow. Yeah, now, that is one of your major
contributions to Fresno. I know you've done other projects, as
well. What are the other ones like?
>> Paul Saito: Well, like I say, when I left the City of
Anaheim, I didn't have a good health plan, health. And so I went
to the architects, the building architects, and I asked them, I
said, can we can the landscape architects piggyback on your
plan, which was called the AIA Trustees? So they said, yeah, why
don't you come up to San Francisco and talk to our board, our
trustee? So I went to San Francisco and I made my pitch for the
landscape architects, California Council of Landscape
Architects. They said, yeah, we'd welcome you to become part of
our plan. So we joined their plan. So at that time, they said,
we need a representation. So they asked me to be on that trustee
board. I couldn't vote that I would represent the Landscape of
Architects on this trustee. So, what I'm getting to is because I
joined that plan, one of the trustees up there was from Fresno.
His name was Edward Darden . He was an architect from Fresno.
And so he said, he says, you know, I have an architect, he's
retiring. He said, would you be interested in designing some
schools? I'm doing work for the Clovis School District. And
would you come up and design some schools, and I'll introduce
you to Dr. Buchanan ? And so he says, I said, yeah, I'd be happy
to, because I'm the-- we did the Japanese Garden there. And so,
so I opened an office that year.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: And then, so we started working for the Clovis
School District. So we started designing schools for the Clovis.
So that's how I
>> Carlene Tinker: That's how you got [here]
>> Paul Saito: Opened an office in Fresno, because
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's how you got here.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, that's how I [got here]
>> Carlene Tinker: Well, that was probably a big adjustment too.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Because you were coming from Montebello,
which is in a very densely populated, very urban area.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And at the time, probably Fresno was not very
urban.
>> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: No. So, you had a, I think a culture shock
probably.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, because Herndon avenue was out on the tules
at that time. And Woodward Park was way out there.
>> Carlene Tinker: So then you went to work for
physically move to Fresno?
when did you
>> Paul Saito: Well, yeah, like I say, we opened an office in
'70, a private practice. And then, so I opened a branch office
in Fresno, and I opened a branch another partner was in San
Jose. So we had three offices; in San Jose, in Fresno, and in
Brea, California. And so in 1978, I think it was, oh, 1981, I
split with my partners, and I opened an office in '81 just as
Saito Associates, landscape. Because the name of our firm in
Orange County was Recreational Land Planners, because we were
doing, 90% of our work, we're doing work for cities doing parks.
So that's where we came up with the name. And I had two other
partners. But then that kind of fell apart when I was up in
Fresno. So I decided to just become myself and open Saito
Associates in 1981. And that's when I started some urban
planning jobs. And then I moved up here right after that.
>> Carlene Tinker: And so basically you've been here since '81.
>> Paul Saito: '81, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Now, as I recall, don't you have didn't you
have a part in the assembly centers, Pinedale and the
Fairgrounds, is that correct? Do you want to describe briefly
what those are?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, well, you know, when they started giving
these memorial sites these plaques out, and this was back, what,
14, 15 years ago, the Fairgrounds wanted to put a memorial there
because that was the internment there, I think. So they asked,
at that time, Sharon Levy was on the Board of Supervisors, and
they and the fair manager contacted a few of the Japanese
community here and Dale Ikeda was there at the time, and he
that's when I first met him, and that was like 14 years ago, to
do a little memorial there. So we didn't have any money, and so
we wanted to we had this bronze plaque, but what are we going
to do, so they were going to just put it on the wall of the
building, and so we decided to do a little landscaped area. So I
think we only had a couple thousand dollars to work with. So I
was able to get some I knew the Bomanite people that do that,
stamp concrete. And then I designed a little fountain with a
rock. So we wanted to get a symbolic rock. So Sharon Levy says,
well, I have a place up on the way to Shaver Lake, and I have
these boulders on there I'd be glad to donate. So I met her and
her father up there, and we got a truck and we got this boulder
and we brought it to the fairgrounds, and we stuck that in the
fountain and that made that up in the middle of this fountain.
That was our, that was our symbol. Then I got Belmont Nursery to
donate these trees. So that's all, that's all we had. And that
was for years until, until later when Dale was asked to do the
Pinedale one. So, because he had worked with me on that many
years ago, he asked me if I would be willing to design the one
at Pinedale, so I designed the Remembrance Plaza in Pinedale.
And when we finished that, then the Fairgrounds, I said, we need
to upgrade that one, because that's kind of a it was really
nothing, you know, compared. So he was able to generate all this
money. I think he raised over a couple hundred thousand dollars.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh.
>> Paul Saito: To do one at the fairgrounds.
>> Carlene Tinker: Wow.
>> Paul Saito: In fact, the NISSEI farmers came up with the
ones for all the bronze plaque. So, we said, we don't want to do
it in plastic. We want to do it in so they came up with I don't
know how many thousands of dollars they came up with. I think
like $5-6,000 dollars just to do the bronze plaques. And so we
spend a lot of money there. So, that one turned out to be and
then Pinedale, I think he was raised, he must have raised at
least $80,000 for that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh.
>> Paul Saito: Because we had to get that sculpture.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: And the sculpture alone was I think like $20,000
for the sculpture.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: And we hired Gerald Tsutakawa out of Seattle,
because his father donated had designed two of the fountains on
the Fulton Mall. So we decided that he would be the person. So
he came down. I got to meet him. And he's designed that
sculpture that we have there in Pinedale. And it's ironic
because the people from Seattle were interned in Pinedale. So
the Seattle people, the Portland people, Sacramento people were
in Pinedale, so Fresno people had nothing to do with Pinedale,
but where they still came up with these internment and wanted to
honor the people. So, was it two years ago or a year ago,
there's a contingent came down from Seattle, and they saw that
this is where their parents were, where they were interned.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh. That is an amazing story. I had
no idea. Just for the viewer, I want to stress, or bring out the
fact that Fresno was the site of two assembly centers for the
people who were going to be evacuated.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: I can't remember. I think there were 16 all
totaled. But Fresno had two of them.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: As Mr. Saito just pointed out, Fresno
Fairgrounds was one, and Pinedale, which is over on Alluvial,
and it's on the grounds of what, a lumber company?
>> Paul Saito: It was all the Pinedale Lumber Company, yes, uh
huh.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, it's an amazing history that Fresno has.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, you know, if you really think about it.
>> Paul Saito: But it's you have to give credit to the Fresno
people. They had nothing to do with Pinedale, but yet they felt
that there should be a place where history should be told. And
like my daughter, who's Yonsei, and she doesn't know anything
about what happened during the internment period. If she comes
here and sees Pinedale, the whole history of what happened here
from the day they were evacuated.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, with the storyboards.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, with the storyboards.
>> Carlene Tinker: Both of them, which are incredible. And then
now, with the Fresno Historical Museum at the Fairgrounds, we
have our part in history there as well, that wonderful exhibit
that tells a lot about our history.
>> Paul Saito: And what you're doing here at Madden Library is
also continuing on with the internment project.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, exactly. So generally, the emphasis
today is to talk about your experiences living as a Japanese
American altogether, but particularly in the valley here. So,
since you've moved here, what has your life been like compared
to being in Southern California?
>> Paul Saito: Well, I Southern California is although I lived
in Yorba Linda, which is outside of Anaheim, the congestion of
the traffic and everything is it just got to be too congested,
and you're just, you're just a number. But when we came up to
Fresno, they appreciate your talents, you know, and put you to
work, so to speak, and you integrate into the Japanese community
here. And so since I was an internee and I thought it was my
duty to participate in the story of the internment. So that's
why I got involved with Dale in both projects, because I thought
it was so important for my daughter and people in her age group
and beyond her age group will know that something happened
during World War II. It shouldn't be forgotten. And we were
lucky to have Pete Mehas on our committee for Pinedale, and he
made he was a superintendent of schools for the County of
Fresno, and he made sure that this internment story was in all
the history books in Fresno County, and I think throughout the
United States. So, and my history books never said a thing about
internment. But now we have, we have assembly center projects in
Merced, and two in Fresno, and I'm ashamed that we don't have
one in Santa Anita because that's where the largest community of
Japanese were put. I think there's like 20,000 people were put
in.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right.
>> Paul Saito: In Santa Anita. And they don't have nothing but a
plaque there. And I think and I just learned last night, after
talking with, or yesterday, I was talking with my friend, Gray
Anderson, at Nee Hai Bonsai Nursery, that there's a project like
that's called a Tokyo craft or something like that. They have
this big show at Santa Anita Race Track where they have all
these different Japanese groups that have a booth there. And, in
fact, he was invited. So he had a booth, Nee Hai Bonsai had a
booth in Los Angeles at Santa Anita Race Track. And I'm going to
look into that to see if maybe we can start something down there
with an internment project. Because if they have that, this
Tokyo craft thing, maybe they seem to be all for it. He said
that thing has really grown since he went down there. So I plan
to go there and take a look at it this spring and see if I can
get George Takei involved, and some of the Japanese museum
people down in Los Angeles, if I can get them interested in
doing it. I'd be happy to do the design work, just like I did up
here. And I think we need to, because that's where the bulk of
the people in Los Angeles went to was Santa Anita.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right. That's right. I think that's
wonderful. And you're right. Each of the sites, each of the
relocation camps, each of the assembly centers should have
something so people will know. It's still amazing to me that
there are so many people that don't know about our history.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Especially if you go to the Midwest or the
East. I've met somebody from the faculty here at Fresno State,
the wife, she came from Illinois, and she said she had no idea
when I talked about this to her. So even now, we need to educate
these people. And so with your efforts and other people's
efforts, I think we're doing a good job. In general, has your
life been sort of free of prejudice would you say?
>> Paul Saito: Oh, yes. In Fresno, I mean, people here have been
so friendly. Of course, a lot of farmers and people, there's a
larger Japanese community. In Montebello, we didn't have maybe
we had maybe half a dozen families that we didn't have that many
Japanese families after the war.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: And we didn't have any blacks in Montebello at
the time. And we had mostly, mostly Hispanics.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, is that right?
>> Paul Saito: If you go back to Montebello now, it's probably
about 80% Hispanic.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that right?
>> Paul Saito: Yes. And, but, as far as Japanese go, the most,
the largest Asian population, these are Chinese and Koreans in
Southern California now, so it's kind of depleting, as far as
the Japanese population.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right. Now, the idea of relocation
incarceration, as some people call it, and, you know, in World
War II, there was this mass hysteria and a lot of competition
between the farmers, the white farmers and the Japanese farmers
because the Japanese were very successful.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: And that was one of the impetus to make the
government think that we were, you know, a threat, and we had to
get rid of them and get rid of us and that kind of thing.
Unfortunately, we have, in today's society, we have similar
feelings, right? Some of our government people are treating
immigrants.
>> Paul Saito: Like the Muslims, for example, are being treated
like we were.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, and so it's very important that we tell
our story so this doesn't happen again.
>> Paul Saito: That's true.
>> Carlene Tinker: And the current treatment of people coming
from Mexico, Honduras, and Guatemala, and so forth, and building
the wall.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: I mean, it's very frightening.
>> Paul Saito: It is.
>> Carlene Tinker: It's very frightening.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: You know? I think with the right people in
charge, like DeWitt was in World War II.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my goodness, this could happen again.
>> Paul Saito: I know.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, so the fact that relocation happened,
it's unfortunate, but I think many of us were able to bounce
back. Some of us, unfortunately, are not able to tell their
story. But by interviewing people like you, I think it's opening
up the dialogue.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Among the older folks.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, I was just remembering. I know Ronald
Reagan signed the redress that allowed us to have the letters of
apology and the $20,000 repayment. And, but I just remember that
George W. Bush just passed away here a couple days ago, a few
days ago. And I have a letter, a personal letter of apology from
H. W. Bush.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh.
>> Paul Saito: In my, in my office. And now that I see it, I
think I should frame it and stick it up on the wall.
>> Carlene Tinker: Wait, how did you happen to get that?
>> Paul Saito: Well, as an internee, I was I had gotten a
letter of apology, and my sister did too, and $20,000.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, I don't remember getting that letter.
>> Paul Saito: You don't? No, I have this letter.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Paul Saito: And it's signed by H. W. Bush. So, I bring it up
because he just passed away.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, I don't think my parents kept any of
that.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, yeah?
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, because he, he was
then Bush became president. So actually
Movement didn't go in effect until when
so I still have that letter of apology.
other day.
Reagan went out, and
the letter, the Redress
Bush was president. And
I just looked at it the
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right.
>> Paul Saito: And some of my friends said, yeah, you ought to
frame it and put it up on your wall.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah, well, the obviously that was a
momentous occasion, to get the apology, first of all, and, of
course, the $20,000 that each of us got just was, you know,
certainly didn't repay. Your, your family was lucky that people
took care of you.
>> Paul Saito: No, my dad didn't get it because he died.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. But, I mean, somebody took care of your
property.
>> Paul Saito: That's true.
>> Carlene Tinker: So you didn't lose anything.
>> Paul Saito: No, we were lucky. We were lucky.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, it was symbolic, I guess you want to say.
>> Paul Saito: Absolutely. Yes, it was symbolic, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, so, so, in general, growing up as a
Japanese American, would you have rather been somebody else?
>> Paul Saito: No, I don't think so. I mean, it was quite an
interesting experience, going through this whole from childhood
all the way through evacuation and the internment, then coming
back and trying to adjust to this society again, and then coming
up to Fresno was really, really a change.
>> Carlene Tinker: And a positive change.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, a positive change, because people
appreciated what you did, when in Southern California, it was
just a number, because, you know, everybody does the same thing
you do, but you come up here and what you do a lot of people
don't do. And so it turned out to be good.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right.
>> Paul Saito: And they appreciate what you do.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, what I'm thinking of, our conversation
today was really just a summary of your history as an
individual. We didn't spend a lot of time on your work because
that wasn't the intent of the interview.
>> Paul Saito: Sure.
>> Carlene Tinker: However, how would you like to be remembered
to your family, to your daughter, to everybody? How would you
like to be remembered?
>> Paul Saito: Well, I just remember that we lived in a time of,
an interesting time of life where, you know, from childhood to
adulthood, you had quite a different experience. It's throughout
your life and your career, I think that's most important, you
know. Once you study for what you want it to be, and you love
what you do, and even at my age I would probably never retire
because I love what I do and like the Japanese Garden Of Order
park would be probably my legacy because I -- even though we
designed it nice [inaudible] too, we've made several additions
to the garden, and I've been involved in being able to do the
additions to the garden and seeing my reward is It's not just
the money. It's -- actually the reward is seeing people enjoying
the park when you sit there and you see thousands of people go
through the park and know that it's there for people to really
understand the Japanese culture. And my ultimate aim is to have
this Japanese Cultural Center built and that will be the
culmination of my plans for that garden, like a Japanese
village.
>> Carlene Tinker: How wonderful.
>> Paul Saito: And where we can actually bring in Japanese
culture into Fresno. And we'll have a Japanese restaurant to go
along with the Japanese Museum, Cultural Museum we'll have.
We'll have also be able to have weddings in the garden. We have
weddings now, but we -- people have to go to one of the local
restaurants like Pardini's or Nikola's for the reception. Where,
when we build the Cultural Center, we'll have a banquet facility
that can accommodate about 300 people for weddings.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, wow.
>> Paul Saito: So we can have the wedding in the garden, we can
have the reception here in our banquet facilities, and then have
a Japanese restaurant to cater it. So we can have a package
deal. So, like last year, we had over 40 weddings in the garden.
And I think we can have more because I've designed a wedding
area in the garden so during the day, like on weekends, you can
have weddings where they're not interfering with the public
viewing the garden. So they can have weddings going on, so we
can have -- probably double the amount of weddings, and we can
double the amount of the receptions in the garden. And that's
good revenue. And we need a revenue where we need full-time
gardeners. Right now we have volunteers coming in once a month
to supplement the one man that tries to maintain six areas of
the Japanese garden which is a specialty garden. You have to
prune these monsters, these pine trees, and the Japanese Maples,
and all these other things have to be pruned like they do in
Japan. And you can't do it with volunteers. So we have
volunteers that do it now, but we need to have permanent
gardeners that will be able to -- are trained to do this and not
volunteers that are -- maybe they'll work for maybe a year or
two and they get tired, and you have to train new people. So
we'll have full-time gardeners. And then we'll have a full-time
staff that will be able to -- like an Executive Director and a
Secretary and a person, a Marketing and Promotion person, and
then we'll have a person that will -- an Events person that will
plan all the events and weddings and banquets and all the events
going on in the garden. And so we'll have a full-time staff that
will operate this, and we'll be generating a lot of money to
staff a 10-person staff. And I know we're going to have -- we'll
have an outdoor eating area besides the restaurant, so people
that don't want to go have lunch or dinner, they can have a
serving of food outside, fast food or like a bento or a bento
box or they can have Japanese Green tea or whatever they want as
-- they can come through the garden and just sit out there and
have something to eat or drink. So it's going to be an overall
place to come. And then our gardens are going to be open seven
days a week once the garden is -- the cultural center is
completed. Right now we're able to open the garden from
Wednesday through Sunday from 10 o'clock to dusk, to 7 o'clock.
And before it was closed, we're missing all the 4 million people
that went to Yosemite. They come by Fresno, they come through
Fresno and they go to the garden, it's closed. It doesn't open
until 4 o'clock in the evening. By that time, they've ->> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, right.
>> Paul Saito: -- gone to Yosemite or gone to San Francisco. So
now that it's open, we're going to generate probably -- I
estimate we're going to generate over half a million dollars in
gate fees by opening the garden fulltime, seven days a week. And
so that will generate a lot of income for the garden and it
could be self-sustaining and we don't have to be putting on all
these fundraisers all the time because we'll have -- we won't
have to do these fundraisers because we'll be generating enough
income to be self-sustaining in the garden. And that's my
overall goal is to make this a self-sustaining garden.
>> Carlene Tinker: Well ->> Paul Saito: -- And we'll have to work on volunteers for that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Well, with your energy and enthusiasm I
think you're going to be able to realize that. But I certainly
hope that that does come to fruition. Certainly your
contributions to Fresno already are amazing with the Shinzen
Gardens initially, and then also the two Assembly Centers. So,
obviously, we are very grateful for that. I certainly appreciate
your participating in our newly-formed Issei to Gosei Interview
Project. And is there anything I might have left out that you
want to say as a closing statement?
>> Paul Saito: Well, I commend you for coming up with a project
like this because I think it's much needed, especially for the
generations beyond Gosei because it's -- in fact, there's going
to be -- like my -- just an example. My sister's married to a
Caucasian person and his name is Sweredoski, so she's a
“Pollock,” you know [laughter]. And so she -- and I have a niece
that's married to a Caucasian. So pretty soon you're going to
have a mixture in races and you're not going to see a pure
Japanese anymore. So -- but they're going to forget about what's
going on, what's gone on during the internment period. And I
think it's so important with your project and the projects
that's being done like Nancy from Ukai from the Bay area. She's
doing 50 objects, 50 objects that were made in Japan. And so
that's another project. And then, of course, some of the videos
like Silent Sacrifices that was done here with the Masadas and
Elizabeth Laval and her group that put on this for the Channel - was it ->> Carlene Tinker: That's PBS.
>> Paul Saito: The PBS Channel. And so -- and I understand
they're going to do a follow-up on that on the Nisei veterans, I
think they're -- so there's a lot of projects going on that -like the two Assembly Centers that we have here and hopefully
others that will be done. And I think -- Fresno, I think, is
kind of the leader of all of this, all these projects, because
we've done two internment projects.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right.
>> Paul Saito: We did a Fresno Museum at the Fairgrounds ->> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: -- and, you know, I commended people in Fresno,
and I'm glad to be part of them ->> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: -- and not part of L.A. anymore, you know?
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. So many people think of Fresno as
being still out in the boonies, but ->> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- it's no longer, and we have a lot to be
proud of.
>> Paul Saito: Absolutely.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Well, thank you so much, Paul, Paul
Saito, for your participation. Obviously you have made a very
good impression for me, on me, and I loved listening to your
story. Thank you again.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, thank you for having me.
Collections Research Center. My name is Carlene Tanigoshi
Tinker. And I'm the volunteer coordinator and the first
interviewer for the Issei to Gosei Project, interview project.
It's a new oral history project that we're starting, although we
have others that have already been in existence, but this is
focusing a little bit differently on some of the people who are
being interviewed. So welcome as one of the first interviewees
for this project.
>> Paul Saito: It's a pleasure to be here.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. The focus of the project is to look at
individuals who have lived in the San Joaquin Valley or have-are currently living here. And we want to find out what it's
been like for them as a Japanese-American to have lived in the
valley. And whether or not they have experienced any racism,
prejudice or discrimination. Before we start let me explain how
we arrived at the name for Issei to Gosei interview project.
>> Paul Saito: Okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: There are five generations of Japanese
Americans currently in the United States, and probably more than
that are being born at the very moment. There are five that we
included in this name and we started out with the Isseis. The
Isseis were the first to come to the United States, they came
from Japan. Second were the Niseis who they were children of
Isseis, first-generation born in the United States so that will
be the second part of our project. The third one, the thirdgeneration, are the Sanseis, they're the children of the Niseis,
the second-generation to be born in the United States. Fourth
are the Yonseis, children of Sanseis, the third-generation to be
born in the United States. And fifth are the Goseis, children of
the Yonseis and I believe there are a quite few of them now, the
fourth-generation born in the United States. That instead of
having all of those names in the title of our project we just
said Issei to Gosei.
>> Paul Saito: Okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's the reason why it's called that.
>> Paul Saito: I see.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. The first Isseis as you know, generally
emigrated to the United States in the late 1800's or early
1900's. Most of these people are deceased, however there are
still people coming from Japan so technically they are Isseis as
well.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And may I ask what generation you
belong to?
>> Paul Saito: I'm a sansei.
>> Carlene Tinker: What does that mean?
>> Paul Saito: Well I'm the—I’m sansei, I'm the third-generation
in the United States.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right and then your parents were Nisei?
>> Paul Saito: Nisei yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that correct?
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: I happen also to be a sansei.
>> Paul Saito: Okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: As well. As I said our focus is to look at
your experiences, to tell your story to everybody who might look
at your interview. We are—we are heavily researched by scholars
but also, it's an opportunity for you to share your story with
your family, it's a permanent record of your own history.
>> Paul Saito: Oh okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: So hopefully we achieve that—get that goal or
that aim today. As I said, my name is Carlene Tanigoshi Tinker
and you are Paul Saito. Today is Friday, December 7th, 2018 and
coincidently that is the day that Pearl Harbor was attoattacked.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: The time is 10:28 a.m. So for identification
purposes before we start could you give me your full name?
>> Paul Saito: It's Paul Makoto Saito.
>> Carlene Tinker: Its Makoto?
>> Paul Saito: It's my.
>> Carlene Tinker: A family name?
>> Paul Saito: I don't know where it came from but my parents
must've stuck it in there just to make sure I’m the Japanese
heritage.
>> Carlene Tinker: Actually they didn't do that to me I was
named after Caucasian people. So I don't have a -- unless I,
well I did adopt my maiden name so technically now I have a
Japanese name.
>> Paul Saito: Yes you do.
>> Carlene Tinker: What is your birthdate and how old are you?
>> Paul Saito: My birthday is October 2nd, 1936, that makes me
82 years old.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh wonderful, so you just recently had a
birthday?
>> Paul Saito: Yes, in October.
>> Carlene Tinker: October yeah. And may I ask what your current
address is or where you usually get your mail?
>> Paul Saito: I usually get my mail at my office which is in
the Tower District and it's 1295 North Wishon Avenue in Suite
201, in Fresno, 93728.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay and what is the addressee or does it,
what is the name of your company?
>> Paul Saito: It's called Saito Associates Landscape
Architects, that's the full name.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And right away we've identified what
your career is.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And it sounds like you're still working is
that correct?
>> Paul Saito: Absolutely.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So basically, you're a landscape
architect designer?
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that true?
>> Paul Saito: Exactly.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Okay to make your story complete we're
going to start with your grandparents. Your grandparents on both
sides came from Japan, right?
>> Paul Saito: Yes, they did.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay on your mom—on your dad's side where did
they come from and why did they come to the United States?
>> Paul Saito: Well I don't know too much about my grandparents
because they were all deceased by the time I was born.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh okay.
>> Paul Saito: So there's only one grandparent that was alive
and that was in my father's side, so I had a grandmother but I
never had a grandfather on either side.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: Because I know my mother's side grandparents they
died in their 40's.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh wow.
>> Paul Saito: So she was the eldest girl in the family so she
had to raise her younger, there was 10 children in the family.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh wow.
>> Paul Saito: And so she was the oldest of the,of the girls so
she was kind of put in charge of the family. So a lot of the
younger ones were put in an orphanage and then she kind of went
back and forth bringing them home on weekends and so forth so.
>> Carlene Tinker: And these were your grandparents, right?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, these were my grandparents had passed away
so my mother was taking care of the, the younger kids. And then
my father's side of course I never knew my grandparents because
he was deceased by the time I was born. And all I know is that
when he came to the United States he was a tailor.
>> Carlene Tinker: A tailor?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: And is that what he had done in Japan?
>> Paul Saito: I don't know, I don't know much about -- my
parents never told me much about like where they came from.
>> Carlene Tinker: But that's what he did when he came here?
>> Paul Saito: When he came here, he was a tailor I understand
yes, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay so what do you know what islands they
came from or what cities they came from?
>> Paul Saito: Well I know my father's side came from the
Fukushima area in Japan and then my mother's side was in the
island of Kyushu and Kagoshima.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: So they're kind of far apart as far as two
different cities, they're pretty far apart.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Different islands in fact.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Okay so Fukushima is on the main
island of Honshu.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: And Kagoshima is on the smaller island just
south right?
>> Paul Saito: It's on the southern tip of.
>> Carlene Tinker: Kyushu.
>> Paul Saito: Kyushu.
>> Carlene Tinker: How did – do--do you have any idea how they
got together?
>> Paul Saito: I have no idea.
>> Carlene Tinker: isn’t that something, well that's something
that you'll have to look into.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: What did your mom's side, your grandmother's
side do, were they in agriculture because?
>> Paul Saito: I'm not sure what my mother's side I don't know
hardly any because both of them—both of them are deceased.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: And so my mother never talked about her parents.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'm the same way. My grandpa, my dad's side
died when he was 53 before I was even born, like 10 years before
I was born.
>> Paul Saito: Wow.
>> Carlene Tinker: So I never found out about that side.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, so I have a similar absence of
information just like you so. Anyway, then your mom was she, no
was your mom in this family of 10?
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Now where was she born?
>> Paul Saito: She was born in, I believe in I think it was
Berkeley.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Okay.
>> Paul Saito: I think they were in Northern California then
they moved to Southern California. But I know the first two
older boys were sent to Japan to have schooling by the
grandparents in Japan. And so my mother was the next eldest and
so she took care of the rest of the kids below her. And so they,
I think she lived in Gardena when they lived in Southern
California because one of the—one of the boys was named Jack
Gardena Ono. In fact the second eldest boy was born in Berkeley
his name was Ray Berkeley Ono so I don't know I guess the
parents wanted to identify that they were born in the United
States, I guess.
>> Carlene Tinker: Now interestingly you brought up the fact
that a couple of the kids were sent to Japan to be educated, is
that correct?
>> Paul Saito: By the grandparents.
>> Carlene Tinker: The two eldest children?
>> Paul Saito: Two elder boys yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. And I think there's a special name
given to that kind of person?
>> Paul Saito: Kibeis. Yeah, what are they called?
>> Carlene Tinker: I think kibeis they were called yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Kibeis right. Now did they come back to the
United States?
>> Paul Saito: Oh yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Or did they stay in Japan?
>> Paul Saito: No, they came back here. Yeah, they [inaudible].
Yeah, before the war they came back yeah. I don't know where
they lived, I think they lived in Southern California after
that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, very often I have met people who were
kibeis went over to Japan and then the war broke out and they
got stuck there.
>> Paul Saito: Oh okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: You know so in their case or their cases they
were able to come back.
>> Paul Saito: Right, they were able to come back.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So okay, so your mom was the one who
was in an orphanage?
>> Paul Saito: No, she was the one that.
>> Carlene Tinker: That took care of them?
>> Paul Saito: That took care of the ones that were in the
orphanage so she and her, the next sister below her were kind of
the ones that took care of the kids. The younger mostly were
boys and I think there was, I think about four boys and one
girl.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: That they took care of and then. So they, there's
a shonien I think orphanage in Southern California, Los Angeles
area where they were put into. So my mother kind of raised two
families you know her.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh my goodness.
>> Paul Saito: Her brothers and sisters and my sisters and
myself.
>> Carlene Tinker: Until they were old enough to go on, on their
own.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Now your father, okay your mother's
name was Ono?
>> Paul Saito: Ono yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay your dad, the Saitos what did they do,
what did your dad do, how did he get?
>> Paul Saito: My dad was a nurseryman, he worked for a nursery
in Montebello, they grew indoor plants like philodendrons and
things. And he was in charge of selling that at the market, at
the farm market downtown that was his job. And he worked for a
Japanese gentleman called Uyematsu, Mr. Uyematsu was the owner
of Star Nurseries and so my dad worked for Star Nurseries in
Montebello. But he was the person that sold at the flower
market. They had a place in the flower market where they sold
directly to the florist so.
>> Carlene Tinker: Where was that flower market, was that on 7th
and San Pedro by any chance?
>> Paul Saito: No, that was a vegetable market but this was on
Wall Street.
>> Carlene Tinker: Wall Street.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, Wall Street, I can't remember what streets
but I think between Olympic and something. But it was.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, is that close to 7th and San Pedro I
can't, I don't remember?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, it's not too far away.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: In fact there was, I think one side of the street
was the Japanese growers, on the north -- on the east side was
the American growers. I don't know if it's by design or what but
that's how it worked out. All the Japanese flower growers were
on the west side and the American growers are on the north—on
the east side.
>> Carlene Tinker: Was there a lot of competition between them,
the American and the Japanese growers? Was there any animosity?
>> Paul Saito: I don't think there was that. The Japanese, one
of the biggest florists was San Lorenzo Florists and I think
eventually they moved to Texas but they were one of the big. In
fact my Uncle Jack Ono worked for San Lorenzo Florists on Wall
Street.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Paul Saito: Yes, so.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned. So your parents I don't
remember if I asked you this, how did they get together? Do you
have any idea how mom and dad got together?
>> Paul Saito: Well my dad was, I think he was born in San
Francisco and raised in Oakland.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: And of course my mother was in Berkeley but I
don't, I'm not sure when they met, if they met up there or when
they were down here.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, were they about the same age?
>> Paul Saito: I think my dad was about five years, five or six
years older than my mother.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay and then how many children did they
have, how many siblings do you have, if any?
>> Paul Saito: I just have two twin, I have twin sisters and
myself that's it.
>> Carlene Tinker: Are they younger or older?
>> Paul Saito: They're a year and a half younger than I am.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Are they still alive?
>> Paul Saito: Oh yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, they were schoolteachers.
>> Carlene Tinker: Schoolteachers okay. Okay so then since your
dad worked for the nursery in Montebello that's where you were
born?
>> Paul Saito: I was born in Los Angeles.
>> Carlene Tinker: Los Angeles.
>> Paul Saito: But we were raised in Montebello.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's not too far?
>> Paul Saito: No, it's only less than 10 miles away.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay Montebello as I recall is next to
Monterey Park or no?
>> Paul Saito: Whittier.
>> Carlene Tinker: Monterey Park.
>> Paul Saito: Whittier. Yeah, Monterey Park and Whittier, it's
Monterey Park to the north and Whittier to the east.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Yeah, well right now Monterey Park is
an enclave of a lot of Japanese Americans right.
>> Paul Saito: All the way along the Pomona freeway, all the way
to Diamond Bar is all Oriental, either Chinese or Korean or not
too many Japanese but mostly Chinese.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that right?
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So they sort of took a foothold in that
community?
>> Paul Saito: Oh yes and Diamond Bar in fact Diamond Bar is
split into two school districts and one is the Pomona district
where my niece taught and then the Walnut school district where
the junior high and high school is, is I'd say 70% Asian.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that right?
>> Paul Saito: It's the highest school in the state of
California.
>> Carlene Tinker: Wow.
>> Paul Saito: They got the highest. My sister said I don't know
how many had perfect scores on their SATs.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh wow. That would be pretty challenging if
you were the teacher.
>> Paul Saito: I know.
>> Carlene Tinker: You have to face these really brilliant
children.
>> Paul Saito: I know.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So anyway, you grew up in Montebello
and with your sisters, what did you say they're four years
younger?
>> Paul Saito: A year and a half.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh a year and a half.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And so you guys basically stayed in
Montebello until you went to college I presume?
>> Paul Saito: Yes, well of course we were away for three and a
half years during the war.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Well let's talk about that. When the
war broke out you were probably what seven?
>> Paul Saito: Five, five years old.
>> Carlene Tinker: Only five okay, that's right okay. So do you
have any recollection of that day that Pearl Harbor was bombed?
>> Paul Saito: Well I don't remember the day Pearl Harbor but I
remember the day they evacuated us out of our homes. And I
remember my dad had to stay behind to sell the car and sell the
bikes and everything else. And my uncle came and picked us up in
his car and took us to Santa Anita racetrack where we stayed and
there for what six months in horse stables. So I know that once
the car was driven to Santa Anita, they auctioned off the cars.
And then my dad stayed back to sell and then he came later to
the Santa Anita track where we stayed for I think around six
months or so while they were building the permanent facilities
back east.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right. Well that's pretty vivid, those
are vivid recollections for a five-year-old I'm pretty impressed
with that.
>> Paul Saito: Well I remember Santa Anita very well.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that right? And the reason you got sent to
the assembly center and ultimately to the relocation camp was
because of the executive order that Franklin Delano Roosevelt,
our president at the time signed.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, 9066.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, what was that called?
>> Paul Saito: Executive Order 9066.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right which meant that the West Coast,
California, Washington.
>> Paul Saito: Oregon.
>> Carlene Tinker: Were designated as a military zone and then
because of military necessity certain peoples had to be removed.
They didn't mention Japanese, is that right?
>> Paul Saito: Well there's 120,000 of us that were evacuated.
>> Carlene Tinker: And so it was inferred.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: It wasn't actually blatantly stated that we
were the ones that they were getting rid of?
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay so you were five years old at the time
and when did, let's see you went to Santa Anita and you said you
were in the barns.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, the horse stables. Yes, I remember living
in the horse stables and I remember some of the events going on
in the camp. Yeah, I remember young -- there was not much for us
to do but they had I remember a kite flying contest and my
neighbor across the way made this kite and I thought it was huge
because of course I'm little and the kite was as high as I was.
And I remember he had two of these kites and we won the kite
contest, that's all I remember.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Well now did you go to school, let's see you
were five, could you have gone to kindergarten there or?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, I was in kindergarten at the time so I
don't remember going to school there but I remember some things
happening like one night there was sirens and searchlights
outside the camp and all these I guess the army tanks and
everything were outside. I didn't know what was going on but
evidently one of the gentlemen was kind of inebriated or was
drunk. And I guess he caused a little commotion so they brought
the whole National Guard out.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh [inaudible].
>> Paul Saito: But I remember that one time where there were all
the searchlights and sirens and everything going on. But then I
remember getting on the train and then some of the people that
were behind I remember these ticker tapes where you held on to
it and you throw out when the train left Santa Anita. And I
remember the train ride back to Arkansas, and it was a long
trip.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll bet.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Probably several days.
>> Paul Saito: I think four or five days it took us to get back
to Arkansas.
>> Carlene Tinker: Let's back up to life in Santa Anita. As I
recall not only did some of you stay in horse barns or corrals.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: But did they build barracks as well?
>> Paul Saito: I believe there was some barracks also but we
lived in the horse stables.
>> Carlene Tinker: So very much did you have a mess hall where
people ate?
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay and then did they have church activities
or do you know anything about that?
>> Paul Saito: I don't know about that but I know living in
horse stables we had to go to a latrine, I mean there was no
running water or anything in the barns. So I just remember the
way the barns were our neighbors were, the way the stalls were
hauled they're back-to-back. And so there's an open, I remember
an open so you can look over into your neighbor's room yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: So no privacy?
>> Paul Saito: No privacy at all.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah. Were you treated badly by, I
assume there were guards, is that true?
>> Paul Saito: Oh, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Armed guards?
>> Paul Saito: Outside of the fence yeah. Of course we're little
so we, you know, we didn't, we weren't too observant as our
parents were.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Were you allowed to have any visitors from
the outside?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, I think my mother, we had some real nice
neighbors that lived behind us and she would come to the fence
and talk through the fence and visit us. And she tried to bring
us some things and but I don't, my sisters don't remember
nothing at all hardly you know.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, right.
>> Paul Saito: In Santa Anita but I can remember some of those
things.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So was life really brutal or was it
pretty comfortable, the people who were in charge try to make
you as comfortable as possible?
>> Paul Saito: I don't know.
>> Carlene Tinker: What was your impression?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, I guess I mean we're all Japanese and we're
all you know kids who just, you know how kids are we just all
played together and all that. So but I don't think we were
treated any badly.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay and then just maybe four or five months
later you guys were evacuated right?
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Now I happen to have been in Santa
Anita myself, we got sent to Colorado but you got sent to
Arkansas.
>> Paul Saito: Rohwer Arkansas.
>> Carlene Tinker: Rohwer Arkansas.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: How many days did it take you on that train
to go?
>> Paul Saito: It seemed like a long, like four or five days. It
seems like it took us two days to get through Texas alone. I
think it was but I remember it was a long ride though.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Did you have a compartment or did you
have to set up in like a where they had seats and benches or do
you remember any of that?
>> Paul Saito: No, I think we were all in, I don't know if they
were pullman cars or not but I remember there was, I remember
one thing my sisters had never seen a black man before and the
porters were black. And I remember my sister saying something
about how come your face is black because she had never seen a
black person.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right. I hadn't thought about that
because the blacks hadn't really migrated from the south at that
early—right?.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, but they were working on the trains as
porters I guess.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Now did they have the shades pulled
down? I remember stories about you couldn't have the shades up.
>> Paul Saito: Oh when we went through the cities.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, when you went through the cities.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Did they have armed guards on the train?
>> Paul Saito: I don't remember if there was, there might have
been.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. What did you do for the bathroom, did
they have on the train?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, they had bathrooms on the train yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: But basically, you couldn't take a shower?
>> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: No.
>> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: You don't. But your family was together?
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: You didn't have to get separated?
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay so let's see [inaudible] about that. And
I know when you go through this, when you went through the
cities for people have told me that people would kind of lift
the blinds up to see where they were.
>> Paul Saito: I've heard that before yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: But I guess I wasn't aware of it being a kid.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. But you were supposed to keep the
blinds down?
>> Paul Saito: I see, I heard about that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So anyway you ultimately ended up in
Rohwer. Isn't there another relocation camp in Arkansas?
>> Paul Saito: Yes, Jerome.
>> Carlene Tinker: Jerome.
>> Paul Saito: In fact the Fresno people went to Jerome.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: And then eventually when they closed Jerome, they
came into Rohwer. Because I know the Masada , well Mr. Masada
was in Jerome and then when they closed Jerome and they moved
them into Rohwer because they made Jerome into a POW camp for
German prisoners. So that's why they moved them into Rohwer.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. And Mr. Masada is a very prominent
Japanese American here, I'm glad you brought his name up because
he has lots of stories to tell as well.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, he's one of the stars of Silent Sacrifices
that you saw that video.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: That they made here.
>> Carlene Tinker: Absolutely, that was amazing, amazing. What
was the camp actually like, do you have any recollection of the
area in which it was, like the geography, the plants, the
animals? Do you have any?
>> Paul Saito: Well we had I know on one, on two sides of the
camp, the north and west sides were all forest. And so and then
of course the east side was open and the south side was kind of
open. But I know there was, we were -- I guess there was cotton
fields to the east in the open fields. And I think they allowed
some of our men to go outside and farm out there because I
remember they came in and I know they grew watermelon because
they came into the camps and I remember those huge watermelons
that they're selling off the trucks. And there was a country
store that was outside of the camps and we used to sneak out of
the camps and go there buy a soda because they didn't have soda
in camps so we used to buy the RC Colas and bring it into the
camps. But that was just across the street from the camp.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: So maybe they were, maybe the guards didn't
really think the kids were going to harmful just going across
the street and get some soda and come back right. But I remember
we went fishing to one of the tributaries of the Mississippi
River. I remember going fishing and then camping in the forest
out there, we used to go camping. They used to take us out and
instead of having regular tents they had mosquito tents. Because
I mean that was terrible, they had mosquitoes and [inaudible]
and I mean all these kinds of things that would.
>> Carlene Tinker: And probably deadly snakes like cotton
moccasins and is that true?
>> Paul Saito: I guess there were snakes too but I think they
were closer to the river part you know.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: But we were in the forest you know I remember
going out camping.
>> Carlene Tinker: Do you?
>> Carlene Tinker: Happen to know what's -- what kind of trees
they were in the forest?
>> Paul Saito: No, I -- my background now, I should know, but at
that time, I don't -- I know there just is a big forest around
us, and in fact, the biggest job for the men in the camp were
lumberjacks.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: They used to cut down the lumber, and my dad -- I
know he was a fireman in the camp.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, your dad was?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, and he was a block manager of our camp. We
were block 13, and he was the block manager.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, what did the block managers -- what
were they responsible for?
>> Paul Saito: Well, they kept track of all their families, and
I guess they were the person that had to give all the
information to the people living in the camps and in the block - was just responsible for the block, making sure that
everything was okay. Between the WRA, the War Relocation
Authority -- so he was -- I guess the intermediary between the
WRA and the camp -- I mean, our camp, our block that we were in.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: So, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, each of the camps, I understand, were
divided into blocks.
>> Paul Saito: Yes, right, right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Do you happen to know how many blocks you had
in—in Rohwer?
>> Paul Saito: I'm not sure how many, but we were block 13, I
remember, and then ->> Carlene Tinker: -- block 13.
>> Paul Saito: -- and our address was 13-4F.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and the 4F referred to your little
apartment? Is that right?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, the -- there was essentially two, four, six
-- yeah, there was, like, six rows, two, two, and two, and then
-- so we're the fourth -- the fourth barracks. So that's why we
were 13-4, and then we were the last apartment, and were F. So
that's how we got our address, of 13-4F.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right. And then, as I recall -- I
don't know if your camp was like this, but the barracks had
apartments that were of varying size, depending on the number of
people who were going to live in those little apartments. Is
that kind of what you remember? Like, if you had a family of six
people ->> Paul Saito: Oh, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- you'd have a bigger apartment.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, I guess so, yeah. We had one apartment, I
know, but yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And then, your sisters were alive at that
time, weren't they?
>> Paul Saito: Yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: So you had your sisters. That's two, and you
-- that's three, and your dad and mom -- that's five people.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, so you probably had a larger one.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, and then we had the -- and then, across -in the center of the block was the latrines, and the laundry
rooms that were back-to-back. Latrines were on one side, and
then the washroom was there. And then two -- just across the way
from that was the mess hall, where we had our meals. So --
>> Carlene Tinker: It sounds like -- very much like ours, in
Amache in southeastern Colorado. So imagine they didn't have a
lot of time to plan these out.
>> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: So maybe they used the same ->> Paul Saito: Same plan, yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- to set these up. And getting back to your
dad, you said he was the fireman as well.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Did he stay in camp a long time with
your mom, or did he ever leave?
>> Paul Saito: No, he left. He left -- I can't remember -- after
we were in a year or two. And then they allowed them to go back
to work, because, you know, he was only making $18 a month as a
fireman. So he left, and he left back to New Jersey at Seabrook
Farms. So he was working at Seabrook Farms for -- I don't know
how long, and then he came back. Then he left again and went to
Evanston, Illinois, where he worked at a nursery in Evanston,
Illinois. So he left twice.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, but your mom and your sisters and you
stayed.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, we -- right, exactly.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. What did he do at Seabrook? I don't
remember what Seabrook does.
>> Paul Saito: I think they're -- they package foods and stuff
like that. I think they're -- in fact, a lot of -- I've heard of
other people that worked at Seabrook Farms from the camps. So
they must've hired a lot of Japanese-Americans in Seabrook.
>> Carlene Tinker: That went there.
>> Paul Saito: Yes, mm-hmm.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. I've heard of other people as well, and
I don't know if they're still in existence.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, you mean the -- Seabrook Farms? I don't know
if they are or not.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, and that'd be interesting to find out.
>> Paul Saito: Mm-hmm.
>> Carlene Tinker: Now, when you were in camp, you would've been
about ->> Paul Saito: Five.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- five, six. Okay, so you were there three
years?
>> Paul Saito: Yes, I was in from kindergarten, first, second,
and third grades.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, so basically, you and your mom and your
sisters stayed there.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Your dad came back.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And then you came back to California.
>> Paul Saito: Right, right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Let's get back to Rohwer. What was school
like for you? Do you remember anything about school?
>> Paul Saito: I just remember going to school, and I don't
remember much -- learning much in -- but I'm -- we must've
learned a lot more than we -- when we came back, because it was
kind of an adjustment to get acclimated to California once we
got back from the schools back there. But a lot of the teachers
were Hakujin teachers, too.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, what does that mean, Hakujin?
>> Paul Saito: That means Caucasian.
>> Carlene Tinker: Caucasian? Okay.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And they probably -- from what I've read,
they probably made a lot more money than the people in the
camps. They probably made ->> Paul Saito: Yes, I'm sure they did, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- yeah, because the maximum you could earn
in camp, if you were, like, Japanese, Japanese-Americans, only
$19, if you were professional.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, is that right?
>> Carlene Tinker: And much less if you were, say, a ditch
digger or whatever.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: But the maximum was only $19.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, I know the fire chief was Chief Mails . I
remember his name, and he was a really nice man, because he let
me get onto the fire engine, and -- and, yeah, he was really
nice to the Japanese.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. What was the climate like in -- at
Rohwer?
>> Paul Saito: Humid.
>> Carlene Tinker: Humid?
>> Paul Saito: Humid, and it rained sometimes -- sometimes, it
was flooded. You know, the barracks are on piers, so when it
flooded, it was -- water was underneath the -- I mean, it was ->> Carlene Tinker: Oh, your barracks were on piers?
>> Paul Saito: -- yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, so water could go ->> Paul Saito: Yeah, it could, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- yeah. Because in ours, we had cement
floors, or brick floors.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, you did?
>> Carlene Tinker: We had concrete perimeters -- foundations.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, you did?
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, so water would not have been able to do
that.
>> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: Of course, it also wasn't that humid in
Amache, because we were in the high plains.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, sure, yeah, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: A lot different ->> Paul Saito: It was terrible. I mean, the weather
and, I mean, we're used to dry heat here. And being
humid conditions, and then -- and all the bugs, you
triggers, and the chiggers, and the mosquitoes, and
it was very prevalent over there, compared to here.
was humid,
in that
know, the
all that --
>> Carlene Tinker: -- but it wasn't like that all year long.
Didn't you get snow sometimes, or ->> Paul Saito: It snowed once. I think it snowed ->> Carlene Tinker: -- oh, was that all?
>> Paul Saito: -- yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's right. You were pretty south,
weren't you?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, we were south.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, in Arkansas. So during camp, your dad
was a block manager.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: So he probably was sort of supportive of the
government. Is that true, or could you say that?
>> Paul Saito: Well, I don't know. I don't think ->> Carlene Tinker: In other words, how did he feel about being
there, and being incarcerated?
>> Paul Saito: -- well, I knew he -- I know he didn't like Santa
Anita, because he says, "I wish that place burned down," after
the war.
>> Carlene Tinker: He said what?
>> Paul Saito: He mentioned after the war, about Santa Anita -he said, "I wish that place burned down," because he -- I guess
he had some pretty bad memories of Santa Anita. And then, of
course, back in Arkansas -- of course, we were -- we couldn't
get out, because you had -- we had those guard towers, and
barbed wire fence around. And -- but we didn't have barbed wire
fence on the east --no, on the west and the north, because it
was all forest. You had nowhere to go. I mean, it was just -it's -- it was pretty well controlled there.
>> Carlene Tinker: I see.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: I see. Now, at one point,
'43, '44, there were these loyalty questions
administered. I think that was the intention
to actually -- originally, Japanese couldn't
military.
sort of I guess
that were
of the government
go into the
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, but then that changed.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: They probably needed people to go in the ->> Paul Saito: That's true.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- running out of people. And then, also,
there was some intent to allow people to leave and -- I think
the government actually realized that camps were a bad idea.
They had made a mistake.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: So first, these questions came out. They were
called loyalty questions, and they are referred to as 27 and 28.
Do you have any recollection of what those are?
>> Paul Saito: No, but I remember this group called The No-No
Families, which didn't sign the petition or whatever it was, and
they were sent to Tule Lake because they were -- figured as
they're enemy aliens, I guess. They were considered that. And I
remember some of the -- I remember one gentleman that was sent
to Tule Lake. I guess he was one of that -- where he wanted to
go back to Japan. So they sent those kind of people back to Tule
Lake, too, and they were all -- in fact, my friend George Takei,
the actor ->> Carlene Tinker: Oh, yeah.
>> Paul Saito: -- his parents were No-Nos.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, were they?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, and in fact, he went to -- he was sent to
Santa Anita, and also to Rohwer, Arkansas. So when he came here,
and when I invited him to speak to the group here in Fresno, we
found that we were about the same age, and we went to the same
places. He went to Santa Anita, and he went to Rohwer, Arkansas,
but the only thing -- difference was we stayed in Rohwer, and
his parents were sent to Tule Lake.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned. I didn't remember that. Let
me briefly read those questions for you.
>> Paul Saito: Okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: Number 27, "Are you willing to serve in the
armed forces of the United States on combat duty or wherever
ordered?" That's 27. Twenty-eight, "Will you swear unqualified
allegiance to the United States of America, and faithfully
defend the United States from any and all attack by foreign or
domestic forces, and forswear any form of allegiance to the
Japanese Emperor, to any other foreign government, power, or
organization?" Well, you can see the people -- the Isseis who
were not allowed to be citizens.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, we -- we forgot to mention that early
on, or I forgot to mention that. What did they do? You know, if
they said yes to this, they would be without a country.
>> Paul Saito: That's true.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, and
yes to that, you know, maybe
to protect their parents and
really caught in a bind, you
then the other one --if they said
the young men were probably trying
so forth. You know, they were
know.
>> Paul Saito: Yes, that's true.
>> Carlene Tinker: So -- and some people just, you know, didn't
answer at all, but the No-Nos ->> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- they're the ones, as you very carefully
and very correctly identified -- they were labeled as enemies,
people to be sent away, and then some people actually wanted to
expatriate.
>> Paul Saito: Right, to go back to Japan.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, and Tule Lake -- let's just kind of
talk about that for a second. Tule Lake was kind of a
segregation camp. They actually had a prison there, yeah, and
some of the people who wanted to go back to Japan became very
militant and very public. And there was a lot of brutality, and
a lot of brawls and so forth. That was a very tough, tough camp
to ->> Paul Saito: I bet.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- yeah, yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Mm-hmm.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, fortunately, neither you or I were able - I mean, had that experience.
>> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, anyway, let's get back to coming back to
California. When did your parents come back to California?
>> Paul Saito: It must've been right after the war -- 1945, was
it? Yeah, and we -- I remember leaving Little Rock. We took the
train from Little Rock, Arkansas. We were going to Denver,
because my relatives were there. You know, the Onos and
Yorimotos [assumed spellings] were in Denver, so we had planned
to go from Rohwer to Denver, and then back to California. But I
remember on the train ride from Little Rock to St. Louis,
Missouri, the train was packed, and we were sitting on
suitcases, because there was no more seats. And that -- but the
car behind us was a black car, and so my father had asked the
conductor if we could -- because it was almost half-empty. So
there was just -- well, you know, we don't mind going back, and
we don't -- better than sitting on the suitcases in the -- and
so, my dad asked the conductor, and they wouldn't let us go back
there to sit with the black in the black car, even though it was
half-empty. So that's when segregation was really heavy.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh.
>> Paul Saito: So I remember that so clearly.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my goodness. Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Yes. So -- well, one thing living in Rohwer,
Arkansas, and -- we knew what real segregation was, because I
remember there was separate bathrooms and everything. And it
just was a different world down there, compared to where we
lived in California.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: So we learned about segregation.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Were you often off of camp, or were you
-- no?
>> Paul Saito: Well, just when we snuck out to go get some soda
pop, but that was ->> Carlene Tinker: But that's -- [laughter] ->> Paul Saito: -- we were kids, yeah [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: -- okay, so when you were -- when you came
back to California, you returned to Montebello.
>> Paul Saito: Yes, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, so you grew up there, and you went to
school there.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: And how were your experiences in school?
>> Paul Saito: Well, when I first came back, I was going to be
in the fourth grade, and I had problems with the teacher. And I
don't know what I did, but I was sent to the cloakroom. And I
remember -- I don't know. I guess my folks were out of town or
something, and my aunt and uncle had to come pick me up at
school. And this -- I really -- I thought this teacher was
really a you-know-what. I could have her name -- I could call
her a name, but anyway, I had a rough time in the fourth grade
adjusting to ->> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: -- the new environment.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: So fortunately -- and during the war, my dad -- I
told you he worked at Star Nurseries, and Uyematsu's , but the
person that took over the Star Nurseries was a gentleman named
Wally Naphus . And he was a young man at the time, and he was
just married. And so, at that time, they moved into our home in
Montebello. And so, they kept up the FHA payments and everything
while we were gone.
>> Carlene Tinker: Wow.
>> Paul Saito: And so, we were lucky that that -- and then,
their daughter was born while they were in our -- in our home in
Montebello.
>> Carlene Tinker: Mm-hmm.
>> Paul Saito: So my dad wrote a letter to Mr. Naphus and said
we were coming back, and so Mr. Naphus -- they were -- they're
really nice people. And so, he was -- he had taken over as
running Star Nurseries for Mr. Uyematsu. And so, when he -- when
we came back, he had moved into an apartment, and let us come
back into our home. And so, we got to know them very well. Of
course, my dad didn't have a job, and so he became a gardener.
And so, he's done gardening for years until we went back to work
when Uyematsu came back to take over Star Nurseries. Then my dad
came back to Star Nurseries.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, okay.
>> Paul Saito: But anyway, Mr. Naphus -- they built a home on
the bluffs in Montebello, and his wife was a schoolteacher. And
so, my mother had asked Mrs. Naphus if she would work with me,
tutor me during the summer months. So I used to ride my bike all
the way to -- it was a couple miles away. I used my -- to their
home, and she used to tutor me during the summer months. So when
I went to the fifth grade, I had this real nice teacher, Mrs.
Oliver . I remember her, and so I -- my grades picked up, and I
was doing real well. So I'm walking down the hall, and this old
lady that was in the fourth -- teacher comes up. She says, "Let
me see your report card, you know [laughter]." And when she saw
it, she was shocked to see my grades were different than when it
was her [laughter]. But anyway, that was -- I remember that so
well, just [laughter] ->> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and then you went to high school there,
and ->> Paul Saito: -- junior high and high school.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- yeah. What kind of things did you do in
high school? Were you one of several Japanese-Americans, or were
there very few?
>> Paul Saito: My class, there was only one other girl that was
Japanese.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, really?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, in my sister's class, I think there was
maybe half a dozen.
>> Carlene Tinker: Was that to your advantage or disadvantage,
do you think?
>> Paul Saito: I'm not sure. Kind of hold up. I'm going to need
some water [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, go ahead. You okay?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah. Little dry there.
>> Carlene Tinker: So anyway, was that to your advantage or
disadvantage, do you think, being one of the few Japanese
students?
>> Paul Saito: Well, fortunately, our neighbors in Montebello
were from Kansas. So they weren't used to the -- all the
prejudice that was going on on the west coast. So they had -one boy was my age, and one was my sister's age. And so, they
used to -- we used to go to school together. So they were kind
of protective whenever I was maybe called names and things. They
were there beside me, and so I was lucky that we had real good
neighbors. And we still -- well, I don't know them -- I think
they passed on by now, but anyway, there was some times they
would want to pick fights with you and things. But they were
always there, and then I made some good friends in school. And I
remember there was still some prejudice. Because I was walking
down the street with one of my friends on another street, and
this lady comes out of her house and says, "Hey, Jim." He says,
"I'm going to tell your mother you're walking around with that
Jap, you know."
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: And so Jim went back and told his mother, and she
says, "That woman -- she really -- that woman didn't know what
she's talking about." And so, you know, we had some good
protection there at school.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. But that didn't happen very often?
>> Paul Saito: No, not that often.
>> Carlene Tinker: Fortunately.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Fortunately. Okay, then what kind of
activities were you in in high school?
>> Paul Saito: Well, I ->> Carlene Tinker: Did you play sports, or were you in the --
>> Paul Saito: -- yes. I was in ->> Carlene Tinker: -- were you a good student by this time
[laughter]?
>> Paul Saito: -- well, I was into music and sports.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: From junior high, I -- well, when I was going to
-- I guess when I was in elementary school, my mother sent me to
a guitar teacher. So I learned how to play a guitar, but it was
the wrong kind of guitar. it was a steel guitar, and all you do
is play cowboy music [laughter] or Hawaiian music, you know. And
so, I dropped -- when I got to junior high -- my uncle had left
a coronet, which was a trumpet, and so I took that. And I saw a
-- I joined the orchestra in junior high. So I -- my -- I played
in orchestra -- the trumpet. I learned how to play the trumpet
and E-flat horn, but when I got to high school -- but also, when
I was there, I played sports. I played, you know, football,
basketball, and baseball, just common in junior high. Then, when
I got to high school, I only decided to play football, but then
I joined the band, the marching band. And so, we -- so I played
in the marching band in high school, and then I played football
-- what they called B-football, which is -- I wasn't big enough
to play on the varsity, so I ->> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that was, yeah, according to size.
>> Paul Saito: -- size, yeah. They have A, B, and C. I wasn't
big enough for varsity, so I played B football for three years,
and their -- Kobayashi was my coach. And he was a very stern
person, and he fought in the war. And he was in the 442nd.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: And you remember the picture they made, "Go For
Broke"?
>> Carlene Tinker: Yes.
>> Paul Saito: He was in that picture. He had a small part of it
[laughter]. But anyway, he was my football coach, and he was
very good. And he really put out good teams. So between that,
high school, and then -- in my senior year, I was able to join
the -- they had a dance band called The Esquires. So I joined --
so I played in The Esquires, but we also had to play -- if I
belonged to that, I also had to be in the marching band. So
football games, at halftime, we had to, you know, play. And then
I was also a member of the East Los Angeles Lions' Club Band,
and we marched in parades, and we marched in, like, Santa Claus
Lane Parade in Hollywood, and the Armistice Day Parade in Los
Angeles. And so I got a lot of marching in, which came in handy
later when I went to basic training [laughter]. That's when -so you learn how to march.
>> Carlene Tinker: You were in [laughter] ->> Paul Saito: Yeah [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: -- so you went to high school, and then did
you go to college at all?
>> Paul Saito: I went to -- yes, I went to community college. It
was Pierce -- it was called Pierce School of Agriculture in
Canoga Park, and then they changed it to Pierce JC , and now
it's a -- it's community college.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and you went there for two years?
>> Paul Saito: I went there for two years, and because it's so
far from Montebello, I stayed in the dormitory there. And then,
the thing is, when I went to register during the summer months
before school started, my friend who was on the varsity football
team went with me. And so, I went to the dean, and I said,
"Since I'm going to go to school here, I'd like to register. I
need to register for one of the dormitories." There was nine
dorms, and he says, "Well, you have to put your name on the
writing list." I says, "Okay." So I put name -- and he says, "By
the way, do you play football?" And I said -- and my buddy, who
played on the varsity, says, "Oh, yeah, he plays football," but
he didn't know I played on the B team. I didn't play on the
varsity team. He said, "Well, why don't you go up, talk to the
coach? He's up there at the gym." So we went up, talked to the
coach, and he was small like me. And he says, "My name is Tex
Chasson . I just came from L.A. High School, and I'm the new
coach here at Pierce College. We're going to start a new
football team, and we could use all the men we can to recruit
for this team." And I says, "Well, you know, I only played B
football." And then he says, "Well, at least you played B
football," and then my -- of course, my buddy here, he got a
scholarship to USC as a -- you know [laughter], as a -- so he
said, "Yeah, he plays football." And so, he says, "Well --" he
says -- so I signed up for the football. So I went back to Dean
Kersey , and I said, "Well, I guess I signed up for the team."
And he says, "Well, in that case, you're going to have to come
two weeks before school starts for spring practice, and so
you're going to have to have some -- you're going to have to
have a dorm. So why don't you go up and pick yourself a --" so I
got to pick the best dorm I wanted [laughter] just because I
played football. I got to pick the dormitory that I wanted.
>> Carlene Tinker: You had no idea it was going to come in
handy.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, so that -- so I was able to play two years
of college football at Pierce.
>> Carlene Tinker: Well, did you stay -- did you go straight on
to another four-year school, or ->> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- did you have a -- did you go into the
service at any time?
>> Paul Saito: Well, yeah, when I was in -- oh, okay, when I was
at Pierce, it's a two-year college, and then I signed up for
ornamental horticulture, because my dad was a nurseryman. And
so, while I was there, I liked the landscape design class. And
so, I kind of switched to -- I -- since I don't' want to be a
nurseryman, I want to be a landscape architect. But the only
school that taught landscape architecture in California -accredited school was UC Berkeley. So I was scheduled to go to
UC Berkeley upon graduation, but my senior year at Pierce, I
understand that Cal Poly was going to have an accredited course
in landscape architecture in Pomona. So that gave me the
opportunity to stay in southern California, live at home, and go
to school at Cal Poly Pomona. So that's what I did. I
transferred to Cal Poly, and I could live at home, and -- rather
than going to Berkeley, where I'd had to live up there. So I
decided to stay three years at Cal Poly, so I -- because I -- if
I graduated in two years, I would've missed my sophomore and
freshman courses, which I would like to have, like history, and
perspective drawings, and things like that I would've missed. So
I decided to stay for three years, and the other thing was -because they needed football players, I signed up for the
football team. So I was able to play -- they allowed me to play
three years of college football. So I played actually five years
of college football.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, for heaven's sakes [laughter].
>> Paul Saito: Well, I was going to only play for two years, and
-- but the senior -- my senior year, they said that the team was
going to go to Mexico City to play two games. I said, "Well, I'm
staying another year, so I can go to Mexico [laughter]." So I
stayed an extra year to play my senior year. We went to -played two games in Mexico City.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Paul Saito: So 10 days in Mexico -- while, that's -- so
that's a free ride down there, you know. It's all expenses paid
[laughter], room and board.
>> Carlene Tinker: So you graduated, then, from Cal Poly Pomona.
>> Paul Saito: Pomona, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and with a landscape ->> Paul Saito: Architecture degree.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- architect major, okay.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Did you immediately get a job as a landscape
architect, or did you -- at some time or another, I recall you
went into the service.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, yes. My senior year at Cal Poly, I signed up
with the -- I joined the Air National Guard in Ontario. So while
I was in school, my -- before I graduated, I was going to
reserve meetings. It's one week in a month. And so, when I
graduated from Poly, I had to go to basic training down in San
Antonio, Texas. So I had to spend 10 weeks in -In San Antonio at Lackland Air Force Base to take my basic
training, so I was there for 10 weeks. And like I said, the
marching came in handy because that's all you do is you're
marching, and you march through dinner, you march through the
bivouac, you march, everywhere you march. And so the way,
because of my marching skills, after the first week, they, you
know, what they try to do is they try to tear you down. I mean,
they want this one and that, and you've got to say yes, sir or
no, sir, or, I mean, if you don't, you're and here I'm a
college graduate, and most of these young guys are high school
graduates. So you're among all these kids and you're taking all
these orders from this, this sergeant that's calling you names
and calling you “nip” and everything else, just to get your, get
your goat. So when you take it then, so it was a first week,
they have a, they have the you have four columns, and they go
by height, and then you go down like this. That's how they're so
the tallest guys are in the front row, and they're called the
element leaders. And then there's a right guard, and he's the
one that takes you around, you know, when the sergeant is there,
he's the one that takes you everywhere, the right guard. And
he's the best marcher. And so after the first week, he fired him
and made me the right guard. So I had to take, I had to take him
to all the meals, you know, like on weekends when the sergeants
aren't there or what they call “TIs,” the training instructors,
when they're not there, then I'm in charge. Then also, we have a
barracks. There's like 72 men I think per barracks, and 36
upstairs and 36 downstairs. And so the right guard also becomes
the barracks chief, so I’m in charge of the barracks also. So
you assign all your troops to latrine duty or whatever. And so
that's, that's one advantage, that you're in charge.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, yeah.
>> Paul Saito: So, but, anyway, so you had to take them to
meals, or you had to take them to bivouac. Now, bivouac is where
you take your, you go through the obstacle course.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Then we had to go through that thing I think
three or four times. And, of course, the weather there was so
hot, the red flag was up almost every day we were there, when
it's over 95 degrees and the humidity is up in the 100%. And so
they take us out to bivouac like 6:00 in the morning. So you get
through the obstacle course by 8:00, you know, before it gets
hot.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, so that was quite an experience, being in
the Air Force training down there.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, basically that's how you served your
[military experience] you [were a] volunteer.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, I volunteer.
>> Carlene Tinker: And how long were you there?
>> Paul Saito: Six years. I served six years in the Reserve.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, but then in the meantime, you were
pursuing your profession, is that correct?
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: So you started, you started in southern
California as a landscape architect.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, when I graduated from Cal Poly, I got a job
with the City of Los Angeles, Recreation and Parks Department.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's right.
>> Paul Saito: As a landscape architectural assistant at the
time. And then, but when I graduated, you know, I applied for
the job, but I had to take a test, a test. The city gives you a
civil service test. So they sent a test down to the testing
officer in San Antonio at Lackland Air Force. So I took my test
in San Antonio at the Lackland Air Force Base. And when I came
back, then I took the oral interview for the job at, for Los
Angeles. So I worked there for five years as a landscape
architectural assistant. And at the same time, I was going to
Reserve one weekend a month and a two week summer camp.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: For six years. But the city, the government, they
allowed me to go to a two week summer camp. And they paid me.
They paid me a salary even though I was gone for two weeks.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: And then when I after five years, I got a job
with the City of Anaheim, and I became their landscape
architect, and they and I was still going to Reserves. So they
did the same thing. They allowed me to go to summer camp for two
weeks.
>> Carlene Tinker: How accommodating.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: And then I was still getting my pay.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: So, it was the good thing about working for
civil service, at least you were getting paid even though you
were serving your country. So, anyway, and Anaheim was
>> Carlene Tinker: It was a “twofer.”
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, exactly.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, right. And so my recollection from our
previous conversation is that you gradually became an architect
of your own. I mean, you had your own company. And I think just
to summe-, very quickly, bring you up to where you became a
transplant to Fresno, when did you actually come to Fresno as an
architect? And how did you get here?
>> Paul Saito: I worked for the City of Anaheim for eight years
as a landscape architect. And then I left in 1972 to form my
private practice in Orange County. And then 1972 is when I left
the City of Anaheim, was the year that the City of Fresno hired
us to do the Japanese Garden in Fresno. And that's where I first
became familiar with Fresno. I had never been to Fresno. And we
came up for the interview, and then we got the job to do the
garden.
>> Carlene Tinker: Who actually initiated the idea of the
Japanese Garden? It's now called the Shinzen Garden, right?
>> Paul Saito: Right, right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Who actually came up with that idea?
>> Paul Saito: Well, there was a group of Japanese citizens in
Fresno, Issei and Nisei, that formed this committee called the
Japanese Garden Committee.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: And they were trying to get a Japanese Garden.
Before the war, there was a Japanese Garden in Roeding Park.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: And so after the war, of course, everything
disappeared. The lantern and everything disappeared in the
parks, because they wanted to have a garden in Woodward Park,
which was a brand new park.
>> Carlene Tinker: I see.
>> Paul Saito: So this committee was formed for a couple of
years, and I guess they got enough backing to get the city to
come up with some money to do a park. And so they went out,
there was a gentleman here, a local person, landscape contractor
named Kodo Matsubara, who was a landscape designer and designed
private Japanese Gardens privately. And this ISSEI wanted him to
design the garden. But this City of Anaheim, I mean the City of
Fresno, the Parks and Recreation director Howard Holman says, we
need to have a licensed landscape architect to design this
garden.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: So since Mr. Matsubara
just a contractor.
was unlicensed, he was
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Paul Saito: So they went out with a request for a proposal
throughout the State of California to different firms that had
Japanese surnames. And so we got one of those.
>> Carlene Tinker: I see. So that's actually how you got here.
>> Paul Saito: That's how we got the, we got the letter
proposal, and we sent in our proposal, and then we were asked to
come for an interview. And so I, a friend of mine I had never.
I had been to Japan a couple of times, but never designed a
Japanese Garden. But my friend, there was a Japanese Deer Park
in Buena Park, and a friend of mine, Shiro Nakagawa was the
curator for that park. And he was a friend of mine. And I said,
and he was trained in Japan and graduated from Tokyo
Agricultural University in landscape architecture. So I asked
Shiro, I said, would you be interested in helping me design this
garden in Fresno? So he said yes. So he came up with the
interview with me. And we had to interview two nights in a row.
Once, the Japanese Garden Committee. And next to the Parks and
Recreation Committee. So the first night, I gave the
presentation in English and he gave it in Japanese so that the
ISSEI could understand what we were going to do. And so the next
night, we had to stay overnight and give a presentation at the
Parks and Recreation. So, when we got back to, back to Orange
County, we got a call that we had gotten the job. So that's how
we started in 1972, designed the Shinzen Garden in 1972, when we
started the design, and we finished in, I think in 1975, we
finished designing. The construction started in '75, and they
opened the garden in 1981.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, wow. Yeah, now, that is one of your major
contributions to Fresno. I know you've done other projects, as
well. What are the other ones like?
>> Paul Saito: Well, like I say, when I left the City of
Anaheim, I didn't have a good health plan, health. And so I went
to the architects, the building architects, and I asked them, I
said, can we can the landscape architects piggyback on your
plan, which was called the AIA Trustees? So they said, yeah, why
don't you come up to San Francisco and talk to our board, our
trustee? So I went to San Francisco and I made my pitch for the
landscape architects, California Council of Landscape
Architects. They said, yeah, we'd welcome you to become part of
our plan. So we joined their plan. So at that time, they said,
we need a representation. So they asked me to be on that trustee
board. I couldn't vote that I would represent the Landscape of
Architects on this trustee. So, what I'm getting to is because I
joined that plan, one of the trustees up there was from Fresno.
His name was Edward Darden . He was an architect from Fresno.
And so he said, he says, you know, I have an architect, he's
retiring. He said, would you be interested in designing some
schools? I'm doing work for the Clovis School District. And
would you come up and design some schools, and I'll introduce
you to Dr. Buchanan ? And so he says, I said, yeah, I'd be happy
to, because I'm the-- we did the Japanese Garden there. And so,
so I opened an office that year.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: And then, so we started working for the Clovis
School District. So we started designing schools for the Clovis.
So that's how I
>> Carlene Tinker: That's how you got [here]
>> Paul Saito: Opened an office in Fresno, because
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's how you got here.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, that's how I [got here]
>> Carlene Tinker: Well, that was probably a big adjustment too.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Because you were coming from Montebello,
which is in a very densely populated, very urban area.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And at the time, probably Fresno was not very
urban.
>> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: No. So, you had a, I think a culture shock
probably.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, because Herndon avenue was out on the tules
at that time. And Woodward Park was way out there.
>> Carlene Tinker: So then you went to work for
physically move to Fresno?
when did you
>> Paul Saito: Well, yeah, like I say, we opened an office in
'70, a private practice. And then, so I opened a branch office
in Fresno, and I opened a branch another partner was in San
Jose. So we had three offices; in San Jose, in Fresno, and in
Brea, California. And so in 1978, I think it was, oh, 1981, I
split with my partners, and I opened an office in '81 just as
Saito Associates, landscape. Because the name of our firm in
Orange County was Recreational Land Planners, because we were
doing, 90% of our work, we're doing work for cities doing parks.
So that's where we came up with the name. And I had two other
partners. But then that kind of fell apart when I was up in
Fresno. So I decided to just become myself and open Saito
Associates in 1981. And that's when I started some urban
planning jobs. And then I moved up here right after that.
>> Carlene Tinker: And so basically you've been here since '81.
>> Paul Saito: '81, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Now, as I recall, don't you have didn't you
have a part in the assembly centers, Pinedale and the
Fairgrounds, is that correct? Do you want to describe briefly
what those are?
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, well, you know, when they started giving
these memorial sites these plaques out, and this was back, what,
14, 15 years ago, the Fairgrounds wanted to put a memorial there
because that was the internment there, I think. So they asked,
at that time, Sharon Levy was on the Board of Supervisors, and
they and the fair manager contacted a few of the Japanese
community here and Dale Ikeda was there at the time, and he
that's when I first met him, and that was like 14 years ago, to
do a little memorial there. So we didn't have any money, and so
we wanted to we had this bronze plaque, but what are we going
to do, so they were going to just put it on the wall of the
building, and so we decided to do a little landscaped area. So I
think we only had a couple thousand dollars to work with. So I
was able to get some I knew the Bomanite people that do that,
stamp concrete. And then I designed a little fountain with a
rock. So we wanted to get a symbolic rock. So Sharon Levy says,
well, I have a place up on the way to Shaver Lake, and I have
these boulders on there I'd be glad to donate. So I met her and
her father up there, and we got a truck and we got this boulder
and we brought it to the fairgrounds, and we stuck that in the
fountain and that made that up in the middle of this fountain.
That was our, that was our symbol. Then I got Belmont Nursery to
donate these trees. So that's all, that's all we had. And that
was for years until, until later when Dale was asked to do the
Pinedale one. So, because he had worked with me on that many
years ago, he asked me if I would be willing to design the one
at Pinedale, so I designed the Remembrance Plaza in Pinedale.
And when we finished that, then the Fairgrounds, I said, we need
to upgrade that one, because that's kind of a it was really
nothing, you know, compared. So he was able to generate all this
money. I think he raised over a couple hundred thousand dollars.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh.
>> Paul Saito: To do one at the fairgrounds.
>> Carlene Tinker: Wow.
>> Paul Saito: In fact, the NISSEI farmers came up with the
ones for all the bronze plaque. So, we said, we don't want to do
it in plastic. We want to do it in so they came up with I don't
know how many thousands of dollars they came up with. I think
like $5-6,000 dollars just to do the bronze plaques. And so we
spend a lot of money there. So, that one turned out to be and
then Pinedale, I think he was raised, he must have raised at
least $80,000 for that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh.
>> Paul Saito: Because we had to get that sculpture.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: And the sculpture alone was I think like $20,000
for the sculpture.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: And we hired Gerald Tsutakawa out of Seattle,
because his father donated had designed two of the fountains on
the Fulton Mall. So we decided that he would be the person. So
he came down. I got to meet him. And he's designed that
sculpture that we have there in Pinedale. And it's ironic
because the people from Seattle were interned in Pinedale. So
the Seattle people, the Portland people, Sacramento people were
in Pinedale, so Fresno people had nothing to do with Pinedale,
but where they still came up with these internment and wanted to
honor the people. So, was it two years ago or a year ago,
there's a contingent came down from Seattle, and they saw that
this is where their parents were, where they were interned.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh. That is an amazing story. I had
no idea. Just for the viewer, I want to stress, or bring out the
fact that Fresno was the site of two assembly centers for the
people who were going to be evacuated.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: I can't remember. I think there were 16 all
totaled. But Fresno had two of them.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: As Mr. Saito just pointed out, Fresno
Fairgrounds was one, and Pinedale, which is over on Alluvial,
and it's on the grounds of what, a lumber company?
>> Paul Saito: It was all the Pinedale Lumber Company, yes, uh
huh.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, it's an amazing history that Fresno has.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, you know, if you really think about it.
>> Paul Saito: But it's you have to give credit to the Fresno
people. They had nothing to do with Pinedale, but yet they felt
that there should be a place where history should be told. And
like my daughter, who's Yonsei, and she doesn't know anything
about what happened during the internment period. If she comes
here and sees Pinedale, the whole history of what happened here
from the day they were evacuated.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, with the storyboards.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, with the storyboards.
>> Carlene Tinker: Both of them, which are incredible. And then
now, with the Fresno Historical Museum at the Fairgrounds, we
have our part in history there as well, that wonderful exhibit
that tells a lot about our history.
>> Paul Saito: And what you're doing here at Madden Library is
also continuing on with the internment project.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, exactly. So generally, the emphasis
today is to talk about your experiences living as a Japanese
American altogether, but particularly in the valley here. So,
since you've moved here, what has your life been like compared
to being in Southern California?
>> Paul Saito: Well, I Southern California is although I lived
in Yorba Linda, which is outside of Anaheim, the congestion of
the traffic and everything is it just got to be too congested,
and you're just, you're just a number. But when we came up to
Fresno, they appreciate your talents, you know, and put you to
work, so to speak, and you integrate into the Japanese community
here. And so since I was an internee and I thought it was my
duty to participate in the story of the internment. So that's
why I got involved with Dale in both projects, because I thought
it was so important for my daughter and people in her age group
and beyond her age group will know that something happened
during World War II. It shouldn't be forgotten. And we were
lucky to have Pete Mehas on our committee for Pinedale, and he
made he was a superintendent of schools for the County of
Fresno, and he made sure that this internment story was in all
the history books in Fresno County, and I think throughout the
United States. So, and my history books never said a thing about
internment. But now we have, we have assembly center projects in
Merced, and two in Fresno, and I'm ashamed that we don't have
one in Santa Anita because that's where the largest community of
Japanese were put. I think there's like 20,000 people were put
in.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right.
>> Paul Saito: In Santa Anita. And they don't have nothing but a
plaque there. And I think and I just learned last night, after
talking with, or yesterday, I was talking with my friend, Gray
Anderson, at Nee Hai Bonsai Nursery, that there's a project like
that's called a Tokyo craft or something like that. They have
this big show at Santa Anita Race Track where they have all
these different Japanese groups that have a booth there. And, in
fact, he was invited. So he had a booth, Nee Hai Bonsai had a
booth in Los Angeles at Santa Anita Race Track. And I'm going to
look into that to see if maybe we can start something down there
with an internment project. Because if they have that, this
Tokyo craft thing, maybe they seem to be all for it. He said
that thing has really grown since he went down there. So I plan
to go there and take a look at it this spring and see if I can
get George Takei involved, and some of the Japanese museum
people down in Los Angeles, if I can get them interested in
doing it. I'd be happy to do the design work, just like I did up
here. And I think we need to, because that's where the bulk of
the people in Los Angeles went to was Santa Anita.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right. That's right. I think that's
wonderful. And you're right. Each of the sites, each of the
relocation camps, each of the assembly centers should have
something so people will know. It's still amazing to me that
there are so many people that don't know about our history.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Especially if you go to the Midwest or the
East. I've met somebody from the faculty here at Fresno State,
the wife, she came from Illinois, and she said she had no idea
when I talked about this to her. So even now, we need to educate
these people. And so with your efforts and other people's
efforts, I think we're doing a good job. In general, has your
life been sort of free of prejudice would you say?
>> Paul Saito: Oh, yes. In Fresno, I mean, people here have been
so friendly. Of course, a lot of farmers and people, there's a
larger Japanese community. In Montebello, we didn't have maybe
we had maybe half a dozen families that we didn't have that many
Japanese families after the war.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Paul Saito: And we didn't have any blacks in Montebello at
the time. And we had mostly, mostly Hispanics.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, is that right?
>> Paul Saito: If you go back to Montebello now, it's probably
about 80% Hispanic.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that right?
>> Paul Saito: Yes. And, but, as far as Japanese go, the most,
the largest Asian population, these are Chinese and Koreans in
Southern California now, so it's kind of depleting, as far as
the Japanese population.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right. Now, the idea of relocation
incarceration, as some people call it, and, you know, in World
War II, there was this mass hysteria and a lot of competition
between the farmers, the white farmers and the Japanese farmers
because the Japanese were very successful.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: And that was one of the impetus to make the
government think that we were, you know, a threat, and we had to
get rid of them and get rid of us and that kind of thing.
Unfortunately, we have, in today's society, we have similar
feelings, right? Some of our government people are treating
immigrants.
>> Paul Saito: Like the Muslims, for example, are being treated
like we were.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, and so it's very important that we tell
our story so this doesn't happen again.
>> Paul Saito: That's true.
>> Carlene Tinker: And the current treatment of people coming
from Mexico, Honduras, and Guatemala, and so forth, and building
the wall.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: I mean, it's very frightening.
>> Paul Saito: It is.
>> Carlene Tinker: It's very frightening.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: You know? I think with the right people in
charge, like DeWitt was in World War II.
>> Paul Saito: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my goodness, this could happen again.
>> Paul Saito: I know.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, so the fact that relocation happened,
it's unfortunate, but I think many of us were able to bounce
back. Some of us, unfortunately, are not able to tell their
story. But by interviewing people like you, I think it's opening
up the dialogue.
>> Paul Saito: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Among the older folks.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, I was just remembering. I know Ronald
Reagan signed the redress that allowed us to have the letters of
apology and the $20,000 repayment. And, but I just remember that
George W. Bush just passed away here a couple days ago, a few
days ago. And I have a letter, a personal letter of apology from
H. W. Bush.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh.
>> Paul Saito: In my, in my office. And now that I see it, I
think I should frame it and stick it up on the wall.
>> Carlene Tinker: Wait, how did you happen to get that?
>> Paul Saito: Well, as an internee, I was I had gotten a
letter of apology, and my sister did too, and $20,000.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, I don't remember getting that letter.
>> Paul Saito: You don't? No, I have this letter.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Paul Saito: And it's signed by H. W. Bush. So, I bring it up
because he just passed away.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, I don't think my parents kept any of
that.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, yeah?
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, because he, he was
then Bush became president. So actually
Movement didn't go in effect until when
so I still have that letter of apology.
other day.
Reagan went out, and
the letter, the Redress
Bush was president. And
I just looked at it the
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right.
>> Paul Saito: And some of my friends said, yeah, you ought to
frame it and put it up on your wall.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah, well, the obviously that was a
momentous occasion, to get the apology, first of all, and, of
course, the $20,000 that each of us got just was, you know,
certainly didn't repay. Your, your family was lucky that people
took care of you.
>> Paul Saito: No, my dad didn't get it because he died.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. But, I mean, somebody took care of your
property.
>> Paul Saito: That's true.
>> Carlene Tinker: So you didn't lose anything.
>> Paul Saito: No, we were lucky. We were lucky.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, it was symbolic, I guess you want to say.
>> Paul Saito: Absolutely. Yes, it was symbolic, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, so, so, in general, growing up as a
Japanese American, would you have rather been somebody else?
>> Paul Saito: No, I don't think so. I mean, it was quite an
interesting experience, going through this whole from childhood
all the way through evacuation and the internment, then coming
back and trying to adjust to this society again, and then coming
up to Fresno was really, really a change.
>> Carlene Tinker: And a positive change.
>> Paul Saito: Yeah, a positive change, because people
appreciated what you did, when in Southern California, it was
just a number, because, you know, everybody does the same thing
you do, but you come up here and what you do a lot of people
don't do. And so it turned out to be good.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right.
>> Paul Saito: And they appreciate what you do.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, what I'm thinking of, our conversation
today was really just a summary of your history as an
individual. We didn't spend a lot of time on your work because
that wasn't the intent of the interview.
>> Paul Saito: Sure.
>> Carlene Tinker: However, how would you like to be remembered
to your family, to your daughter, to everybody? How would you
like to be remembered?
>> Paul Saito: Well, I just remember that we lived in a time of,
an interesting time of life where, you know, from childhood to
adulthood, you had quite a different experience. It's throughout
your life and your career, I think that's most important, you
know. Once you study for what you want it to be, and you love
what you do, and even at my age I would probably never retire
because I love what I do and like the Japanese Garden Of Order
park would be probably my legacy because I -- even though we
designed it nice [inaudible] too, we've made several additions
to the garden, and I've been involved in being able to do the
additions to the garden and seeing my reward is It's not just
the money. It's -- actually the reward is seeing people enjoying
the park when you sit there and you see thousands of people go
through the park and know that it's there for people to really
understand the Japanese culture. And my ultimate aim is to have
this Japanese Cultural Center built and that will be the
culmination of my plans for that garden, like a Japanese
village.
>> Carlene Tinker: How wonderful.
>> Paul Saito: And where we can actually bring in Japanese
culture into Fresno. And we'll have a Japanese restaurant to go
along with the Japanese Museum, Cultural Museum we'll have.
We'll have also be able to have weddings in the garden. We have
weddings now, but we -- people have to go to one of the local
restaurants like Pardini's or Nikola's for the reception. Where,
when we build the Cultural Center, we'll have a banquet facility
that can accommodate about 300 people for weddings.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, wow.
>> Paul Saito: So we can have the wedding in the garden, we can
have the reception here in our banquet facilities, and then have
a Japanese restaurant to cater it. So we can have a package
deal. So, like last year, we had over 40 weddings in the garden.
And I think we can have more because I've designed a wedding
area in the garden so during the day, like on weekends, you can
have weddings where they're not interfering with the public
viewing the garden. So they can have weddings going on, so we
can have -- probably double the amount of weddings, and we can
double the amount of the receptions in the garden. And that's
good revenue. And we need a revenue where we need full-time
gardeners. Right now we have volunteers coming in once a month
to supplement the one man that tries to maintain six areas of
the Japanese garden which is a specialty garden. You have to
prune these monsters, these pine trees, and the Japanese Maples,
and all these other things have to be pruned like they do in
Japan. And you can't do it with volunteers. So we have
volunteers that do it now, but we need to have permanent
gardeners that will be able to -- are trained to do this and not
volunteers that are -- maybe they'll work for maybe a year or
two and they get tired, and you have to train new people. So
we'll have full-time gardeners. And then we'll have a full-time
staff that will be able to -- like an Executive Director and a
Secretary and a person, a Marketing and Promotion person, and
then we'll have a person that will -- an Events person that will
plan all the events and weddings and banquets and all the events
going on in the garden. And so we'll have a full-time staff that
will operate this, and we'll be generating a lot of money to
staff a 10-person staff. And I know we're going to have -- we'll
have an outdoor eating area besides the restaurant, so people
that don't want to go have lunch or dinner, they can have a
serving of food outside, fast food or like a bento or a bento
box or they can have Japanese Green tea or whatever they want as
-- they can come through the garden and just sit out there and
have something to eat or drink. So it's going to be an overall
place to come. And then our gardens are going to be open seven
days a week once the garden is -- the cultural center is
completed. Right now we're able to open the garden from
Wednesday through Sunday from 10 o'clock to dusk, to 7 o'clock.
And before it was closed, we're missing all the 4 million people
that went to Yosemite. They come by Fresno, they come through
Fresno and they go to the garden, it's closed. It doesn't open
until 4 o'clock in the evening. By that time, they've ->> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, right.
>> Paul Saito: -- gone to Yosemite or gone to San Francisco. So
now that it's open, we're going to generate probably -- I
estimate we're going to generate over half a million dollars in
gate fees by opening the garden fulltime, seven days a week. And
so that will generate a lot of income for the garden and it
could be self-sustaining and we don't have to be putting on all
these fundraisers all the time because we'll have -- we won't
have to do these fundraisers because we'll be generating enough
income to be self-sustaining in the garden. And that's my
overall goal is to make this a self-sustaining garden.
>> Carlene Tinker: Well ->> Paul Saito: -- And we'll have to work on volunteers for that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Well, with your energy and enthusiasm I
think you're going to be able to realize that. But I certainly
hope that that does come to fruition. Certainly your
contributions to Fresno already are amazing with the Shinzen
Gardens initially, and then also the two Assembly Centers. So,
obviously, we are very grateful for that. I certainly appreciate
your participating in our newly-formed Issei to Gosei Interview
Project. And is there anything I might have left out that you
want to say as a closing statement?
>> Paul Saito: Well, I commend you for coming up with a project
like this because I think it's much needed, especially for the
generations beyond Gosei because it's -- in fact, there's going
to be -- like my -- just an example. My sister's married to a
Caucasian person and his name is Sweredoski, so she's a
“Pollock,” you know [laughter]. And so she -- and I have a niece
that's married to a Caucasian. So pretty soon you're going to
have a mixture in races and you're not going to see a pure
Japanese anymore. So -- but they're going to forget about what's
going on, what's gone on during the internment period. And I
think it's so important with your project and the projects
that's being done like Nancy from Ukai from the Bay area. She's
doing 50 objects, 50 objects that were made in Japan. And so
that's another project. And then, of course, some of the videos
like Silent Sacrifices that was done here with the Masadas and
Elizabeth Laval and her group that put on this for the Channel - was it ->> Carlene Tinker: That's PBS.
>> Paul Saito: The PBS Channel. And so -- and I understand
they're going to do a follow-up on that on the Nisei veterans, I
think they're -- so there's a lot of projects going on that -like the two Assembly Centers that we have here and hopefully
others that will be done. And I think -- Fresno, I think, is
kind of the leader of all of this, all these projects, because
we've done two internment projects.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right.
>> Paul Saito: We did a Fresno Museum at the Fairgrounds ->> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: -- and, you know, I commended people in Fresno,
and I'm glad to be part of them ->> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Paul Saito: -- and not part of L.A. anymore, you know?
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. So many people think of Fresno as
being still out in the boonies, but ->> Paul Saito: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- it's no longer, and we have a lot to be
proud of.
>> Paul Saito: Absolutely.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Well, thank you so much, Paul, Paul
Saito, for your participation. Obviously you have made a very
good impression for me, on me, and I loved listening to your
story. Thank you again.
>> Paul Saito: Oh, thank you for having me.