Robert Ohki interview
Item
Title
eng
Robert Ohki interview
Description
eng
Talks about his family history and experiences with incarceration during World War II.
Creator
eng
Ohki, Robert
eng
Kajiwara, Martha
Relation
eng
JACL-CCDC Japanese American Oral History Collection
Coverage
eng
Livingston, California
Date
eng
2/22/1999
Format
eng
Microsoft Word 2003 document, 37 pages
Rights
eng
Copyright has been transferred to Fresno State
Identifier
eng
SCMS_jacl_00007
extracted text
NARRATOR:
ROBERT OHKI
INTERVIEWER:
MARTHA KAJIWARA
DATE:
June 22, 1999
MK:
And he is now about sixty years old. Can you tell us about where in Japan that your
ancestors came from and what circumstances made them decide to come to the United
States?
RO:
Well first, today the date is June 22, 1999. Okay the thing about my parents. My mother
is from Chiba-ken which is the little town was Mubara where she was born and raised
and the reason she gave for coming to the United States is that her brothers were here.
She has three brothers living in Livingston farming and they wanted to bring their sister
here to the United States. So she came here as a student and when she came here she
enrolled in the University of California and she is an alumni of the University of
California. My father came here because he was the second son, his name is Zengiro and
he is second son of the family and he felt from what I understand that the second son does
not get an inheritance in Japan and he wanted an opportunity to for his life and felt that
the United States would be the place for him to come. So he came here as a young man
probably before he was twenty, eighteen or so. And he is from Saitama. And his family
was a large family. I think they had about ten or eleven kids in the family. I was
fortunate enough to visit there in 1994 or 1995 is when we went the last time.
MK:
Are you finished? Well, —
RO:
Well, I have cousins there too that are living and I was fortunate to meet the cousins on
my mother’s side. And only one cousin from my father’s side and he is the son of the
oldest brother of my father. So it was nice that we were able to meet and the thing about
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OHKI
him is, he told us he knew about my brothers, you know, living in the United States. He
knew about our family quite a bit but I certainly didn’t know too much about my father’s
side because he died when I was eleven and I don’t think I talked to him very much about
his family. All of these things that I learned was from my mother.
MK:
What was— do you recall any of the hard times discrimination or so forth in your family
or that your family faced?
RO:
Well, I think when I was younger, I think I felt, gee, why am I Japanese and not like the
rest of them. On the other hand, I think in Livingston, we were fortunate that we didn’t
feel as much discrimination in school and teachers and leaders in our community. I think
some of them were anti-Japanese but at least, there was, since we had such a community
here and it seems that our parents sort of smoothed things out in Livingston and we had
some pretty good— well you know people that can smooth things out and that type of
things. And it kind of helped the community grow like that and we were fortunate as
youngsters.
MK:
Now what success or experience have there been in the family or have there been any
unusual experiences?
RO:
Now this was all when I was growing up but I think my uncles did okay in there—did
well in their farming until hard times hit and I think they have gone through all the
depression before the twenties I think and they survived. But they were in farming and
my sister worked, I have three uncles here and they farmed more and more ground. They
owned more and more. In Livingston, we had corporations that they operated under, so
that’s because they couldn’t own property, they were able to form a corporation; they
were able to stay in business, get into business and buy property and so forth. But I think
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OHKI
we, in the late twenties, I know my oldest uncle had a stroke so he wasn’t able to function
too well and then the 1929 Depression came and by that time, you know, and in 1930 or
so they terminated the farming operation. But in 1930 though, my father was able to
purchase the property that we live on now which is not the same area where I was born
because I was born right near town, the city of Livingston, and this was 1919, November
15th, and so we—he was able to start us over again on this property that he bought. And
it was forty acres of grape vineyards (inaudible) and there was some alfalfa growing there
so we could feed our horses to farm with. That sort of thing that we started in 1930, the
hard part I think was when my father died in 1931, after he set us up on this farm. And
our family, there were four boys and one sister that was the youngest. We were all born
within seven years. From the time they were married, I guess that was about eight years
so my mother had to take care of all of us and she was not a farmer. So and you know
anyway she came here to be a student but in the past in Japan, she also went to college
and was a school teacher, elementary school teacher in Japan before her brothers called
her to come to the United States. So she was not a farmer but she was—well she came
here during the World War, the First World War, so it was probably around 1915 or so
when she arrived. And so after my father died, yes, it was very hard for my mother being
that she never had farmed and done any physical labor. But I was eleven and my brothers
and we had four boys born first so we were, you know, able to help my mother somewhat
even then. But I think what helped also was the community, our friends even helped us
on the farm, too. Of course we paid them a little bit I don’t know, but I know she paid
them. And they were good enough to help us when crops needed to be harvested or there
was lots of work that we couldn’t do as kids, you know. And that’s the way we—well
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OHKI
until we grew up in high school and so forth. And so that was hard times all right but I
guess we never did feel hungry or anything like that. And my mother taught Japanese
school too so, that was part of her, well, stipend you might say she got. And there was
also work at the packing house that the ladies would come to pack fruit there in the
summer and that was, you know, always ways of earning something helped us survive the
depression. Plus the farm, it was a way to get started and as we got older, it got easier
actually.
MK:
With so many boys, you were lucky.
RO:
Well, yeah, we were lucky to have four boys.
MK:
What were your reactions when you first heard about the bombing of Pearl Harbor?
RO:
Well, it was a Sunday and we were at church that day and I was sitting in our car and had
the radio on and of course, the Nisei didn’t go to Japanese service. So our parents, my
mother was in the church. So I heard it. I directly, the first newscast about the bomb, I
heard that about the thing that happened and nobody of course, the people didn’t know
about it until they heard later. But I was there and heard the first newscast about the
bombing and thought what are we going to do now?
MK:
Do you remember how was it given? How was the newscaster, how did he put it, the
newscaster?
RO:
Why he wasn’t anti-Japanese so much. He was really telling what was happening in
Hawaii and you could hear the airplane noise, too.
MK:
Oh my.
RO:
So, and all the explosions and things like that that was taking place. There was not too
much information about how they came or what.
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OHKI
MK:
It was right then.
RO:
Yes, they were telling us what was happening right there.
MK:
That was interesting. You are lucky you heard that. There were lots of people that didn’t
hear it, you know the newscast. How did the—well you told us how the non-Japanese
related to you. They were all pretty good to you. Did you have any discriminations or
something ever face?
RO:
Well once in the while we would hear the “J” word but and I didn’t like that but on the
other hand, we had to take it as lightly as we could. But other than that, I think the school
experience and all discrimination didn’t seem to be very evident, especially in
Livingston.
MK:
Being in a small town everybody knew each other and I think that is what is good about
it. What did your family do with your home and belongings during the internment?
RO:
Well, of course, our community when we started hearing about evacuation, one of the
farmers, we decided to have a manager manage our farms because everybody couldn’t
find somebody to manage the farms. After all, there were about sixty some, sixty-five
families in Livingston that were farming you might say. And so there was a group
decision to hire a manager. Some of our farmers found their own managers or their own
people that they trusted, but in our case, we joined with the group that would manage it
for us. So we had meetings to organize this and we were able to and we had friends that
became trustees to watch over our operator and in their absence. Fortunately we had
three people that were, became our trustees and that was Mr. Winston and Mr. Griswald
and Mr. Stringer, who wanted to help us relocate or whatever during our war, during the
war and they took care of our business.
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OHKI
MK:
Yeah and they were very kind to do that for us. What did your family own?
RO:
Oh, what did you we do with our belongings?
MK:
Yeah, belongings I guess you did the same thing we did.
RO:
Well, I don’t recall. We sold most of it, like our automobiles, we sold those kinds of
things and the piano, I don’t know what happened to it. But the big things you know,
they were all, we retrieved them all after we came back. I think we put some of the
things in our tank house and shut the doors tight and nailed it down whatever but I think
the people still got inside and looked at things. But I guess nobody, we didn’t find too
many things destroyed.
MK:
Was anyone in your family arrested by the FBI?
RO:
No, no, none of our family.
MK:
We forgot to say (inaudible) brother was, you know. Were you inducted into the military
service, how did the internment and how did the internment experience and WWII affect
your choice of career in life?
RO:
Well, no I think when we were in camp, we were asked to show our loyalty by the
questionnaire and I was affirmative of being a citizen and all. But at that time, also or
soon after I guess, military service, was, they were asking for volunteers for the infantry.
Yeah, I being the oldest I wasn’t sure what my role should be but before I knew it, before
I could, before much decision on my part, my one brother came and told me he was the
second one said that he had volunteered for the infantry. He was going to go. And then in
a little while later, my youngest brother came back and said he had signed his name and
he is going to volunteer. So I had two brothers that were volunteering for the infantry
that was, you know, the regiment they were wanting to form for the Japanese-Americans.
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OHKI
But later on in life, I was deferred because I did, you know—I had deferment things. But
you are talking about military, well this is probably after I left camp but my time for
induction finally came and my draft board asked me to take a physical exam, which I
passed, and this was already about 1944. And so I had my physical exam and they said
that I was 1A but on the other hand, I was to get inducted about three or four months later
in 1944 but for some reason the draft board said your induction has been stayed. So I
was never—
MK:
Probably because you are the oldest of the family too.
RO:
Well by that time, I think that my brother was killed in action.
MK:
Oh I see.
RO:
In Italy and then I don’t know why, but the draft board, and maybe the war was slowing
down, I don’t know. They just said don’t come to induction. So that is why I didn’t—I
wasn’t in the army.
MK:
Well that’s good, lucky for you and your family.
RO:
Well, I sort of wanted to go for some reason.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
For some reason I was ready to go and they said you are 1A and I said okay just tell me
when. But anyway I’ll talk about this later with my business and relocation.
MK:
I think—what do you remember about your family life? Entertainment, hardships you
had mentioned some of the hardships but—
RO:
Well, the family life I think, our family of five children and of course my mother and the
later part of our youth there at home until the war started, we were compatible and I think
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OHKI
we just did the normal things that kids did and just enjoyed whatever we had and my
mother was, well—she wanted us to grow up normally so I guess that is what we did.
MK:
She did a good job with so many children. It says here, what schools did you go and how
did you feel about school? How were you treated and who were your playmates?
RO:
Well, I enjoyed school from the beginning. The family were education-oriented and they
just wanted us to be Americans really. So we all had American names, too. My mother,
our parents didn’t give us any Japanese names, which I wish I had many times. But
anyway, so that was their goal. And I took school seriously, I learned what I was
supposed to learn, I think.
MK:
You were always a model student.
RO:
Yeah, I had fairly good grades. So I guess I could appreciate the fact of what the parents
insisted about growing up and schooling and we tried our best and tried to be, you know,
good whatever we did and I think we had so many Japanese kids in our community and
in school, I don’t know what the percentage was, but other than my class in high school
we were one third of the class were Japanese, Niseis, and there were about a hundred and
five or so that graduated together with the rest. And about in our number, we had about
thirty-three I think of those who were classmates. So we had a lot of common interests
and I think we just kind of enjoyed growing up here in Livingston.
MK:
Were you ever invited to the homes of Caucasian children?
RO:
Not that much, very often I don’t think but we did have friends that were Caucasian and I
think we felt very, you know, very comfortable with who we were with. So at this early
age we didn’t feel so much, except I know that when our older Nisei went to college for
instance and the thing was, could they get a job? You know and I think there was a lot of
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OHKI
discrimination there. Boy, they couldn’t get jobs especially for what they were qualified
for.
MK:
They were over-qualified.
RO:
Yeah, and so I noticed that many of our friends that were older, well, got jobs with
Japanese companies, for instance, and they got started that way. But for us, we, to me, I
did wonder about gee what is our future going to be like? I personally felt, well, my
mother says well set a goal, anyway and all through school I think I was in the pre-med,
pre-medical curriculum so I could divert from that and so I would learn the technical
subjects as well as language and then she also said, you don’t go to school just to do
work. There are other things in life like culture and the Japanese have, you know, a lot of
culture.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
That we tried to remember I guess. We have tried to remember and I guess that was part
of our life, too.
MK:
Yeah, you had a very educated and strong mother so you got along pretty well even
though your dad died early.
RO:
That’s the thing in pre-war, my father died before the war but I didn’t get to learn too
much from him. All I know is that he was a good worker. He came and got married here
in Livingston to my mother. I don’t know how they met but I think it is through friends,
not through third party so much, not through the Japanese (bishiyaku-nin) process but
more through friends. Of course he lived in Fresno so, the Fresno people, my mother had
a classmate or school mate from college in Japan that lived in Fresno so we were in touch
with Fresno people somewhat.
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OHKI
MK:
Is that how you married Julia?
RO:
That’s kind of a good question? My in fact, I’ll bring that up later.
MK:
You don’t have to answer but then I was curious.
RO:
Yeah, well you know, during school years we didn’t date much I don’t think I dated
anybody that I know of. I was kind of shy about that.
MK:
I think we just went with groups of people.
RO:
Yeah, we had a car you know and there were mixed groups. But I think some of them
that stayed in the community did have boyfriends and girlfriends you know that I can
remember so. But I didn’t do that. But anyway I guess I was a little shy.
MK:
Right. You and Eric were shy I think.
RO:
Yeah, some of us were a little shyer.
MK:
Yeah, he was at (inaudible) and I used to tease Eric all the time.
RO:
Well good thing you didn’t tease me but it was all right, if you did, I guess.
MK:
Well we knew you too well and we didn’t know Eric.
RO:
But you girls, you know, growing up you helped us too because you encouraged us to do
some things we wouldn’t do on our own, you know. Be a little braver and teach us to
dance. And participate so I have to thank all you girls.
MK:
Oh you are welcome. As a child did you consider yourself Japanese, or JapaneseAmerican or American?
RO:
I sort of thought of this before but I thought I was American first and so we didn’t have
a—I know my mother and father didn’t list us as Japanese citizens so we didn’t have a
dual citizenship thing at all in our family.
MK:
Oh, uh-huh. Yeah.
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RO:
OHKI
So, and so I had I guess I always felt I was American but I always wondered why I was
Japanese and I was in this category but on the other hand, there was nothing we could do
about it. But I don’t know if I regret it or not but later in life, I think I felt that I was in
the right spot.
MK:
But what can you do if you are born.
RO:
Japanese yeah.
MK:
I know you had good relations with your mother. I don’t know your dad too well but
then it says, did you date? What did you do on your dates?
RO:
I know, like we said before I think we probably enjoyed each other like in groups or we
would go to swing parties and we all had fun together, kind of communal thing or youth
thing.
MK:
Youth group.
RO:
Yeah, fellowship group at the church.
MK:
Yeah, I don’t know what it was called.
RO:
We kind of participated with the other sex that way. I think more than individually.
MK:
Now here is an interesting question. What qualities did you look for in a husband or a
wife in your case? Did you look for certain qualities or was it (inaudible)?
RO:
Well, I’ll tell you, my mother, my mother was a, you know.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
She was particular who I married. I think a lot of Japanese parents were that way. But
one thing and they felt never marry out of the Japanese race.
MK:
Is that right?
RO:
That was one of her commands, you might say.
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OHKI
MK:
Well at least you had commands. I don’t think my parents said anything to me.
RO:
So I don’t know. During the time I was away after camp I did meet some, you know,
Caucasian girls and I really liked them, you know. And it was maybe because I met them
at church and all that.
MK:
Outward, much more outward.
RO:
Yeah, yeah and easy to talk to I might say.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
And I felt I want to be your friend and something like that and I enjoyed that, you know.
Outside of that, of course, finding a spouse is a lot. To me it was one of the most
important decision that I was to make so it took me a long time. I was twenty-eight, I
think, before I got married.
MK:
Well Butch and I were from high school days so.
RO:
Well some people were courting in high school, you might say, but I didn’t do that and
neither did I do that in college so like you say Martha, I think I had to look. I had to look
over the field and just thinking and I thought more and more about my families’ friends.
And I thought, gee, maybe there is somebody among them, you know. And there was a
family that my mother—her classmate that came from LA, you know? And they had a
family. And I worked with one of them in camp, in the office, so I got acquainted with
the family you know, the mother and father. And siblings and there were two girls and a
boy in that family and I thought gee, that was a possibility. But anyway I think after I
started doing conferences and things post-war, I knew I had to decide and I finally
decided on a family that I think I could trust and had a good background and that’s the
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OHKI
kind of thing that my mother taught me and my faith. And so I think, it kind of went that
way.
MK:
That’s good. It’s good that your mother taught you certain you know characteristics or
characters or attitude to look for in people.
RO:
The way it happened though is I married somebody from Fresno. My father lived there
as a bachelor and my mother knew some of the people in Fresno, too. But and she talked
about these families in Fresno so I was familiar with the family somewhat. And then I
found out later that they are the, what do you call them, in the church, and we were still in
the church there. So anyway I finally decided, I got to make up my mind and I said okay
I am going to ask this girl if you would be interested in getting together and getting
acquainted. I don’t know. Only way to put it, I knew I had to get serious.
MK:
Well that’s good. At least you had a certain, what do you call it? Certain kind of a
person in mind so you just don’t go flirting with anybody.
RO:
Yeah, you know and I know there was all kinds of opportunities for youngsters then
because most of them were not married yet.
MK:
A lot of Japanese around.
RO:
And there was a real close family friend in Fresno that my mother, that was her class—
her schoolmate and we used to visit Fresno to go to their house and stuff so. Oh yeah so
gee, that would be a good choice too, you know, but anyway I finally regretted that one
but like I say, to meet Julia and things went our way so I was fortunate.
MK:
Well that is good.
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RO:
OHKI
It just—it just said okay and let’s be serious about it a little bit and I think it was through
work that we had youth conferences and we worked together to prepare for these
conferences and that sort of helped.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
That we got acquainted of course Julia said that is when she first knew me. (laughs)
MK:
Yes. That is good then. It is a good combination then and it ended up very well. Let’s
see. Let me see, were you, did you work out beside your farm when you were younger?
RO:
Yes, well, yes well after high school you know and I wasn’t able to go to school after the
junior college but I had a cousin that lived in Berkeley and my uncle moved to Berkeley
also after he left the farm. He became gardener.
MK:
Rosies?
RO:
Doing okay so, my aunt said sure come to the city and I could stay there and go to work
in the Bay Area. So I guess this was after that, about 1940 or so that I did that. Around
1940 and I was able to get employment there but, so I didn’t work on the farm for
anybody else after college, after two years. The reason I was able to go only two years is
my brothers had to go to school.
MK:
Oh yeah.
RO:
See, my brother was two grades under me and my mother said I don’t expect you to go to
the University this year, but I want your brother to go to junior college where I was after I
had graduated. So I said okay, we’ll take our turn, and we went to, he graduated from
there too by 1941 and so I guess I came to help on the farm but my other brothers were
old enough to—take and work on the farm to maintain the farm. And I said okay, I’ll go
and whatever I make I’ll just give it to the family.
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OHKI
MK:
Oh I see.
RO:
And that’s how we supported each other. And far as work going when we were kids
being my father had died, to support the family we worked in the summer time whatever
jobs there were we worked at Okuye’s cutting peaches and doing dry yard work in the
summer. Harvesting things like that well our grapes were not ready that early in the
summer and they were ready later to harvest in September so. Early summer we would
work and support the family. Our aim was to have enough until summer came so we
could work out and earn our way until we sell our grapes.
MK:
I see.
RO:
But anyway that is about the kind of work I did. On the farm work before I went to
school.
MK:
Well you are reaping your harvest now. It turned out well for you.
RO:
So I went to work in the Bay area at Singer Sewing Machine Company.
MK:
Oh I remember, I vaguely remember that.
RO:
And you were still at the University of California at that time and I got a job there they
didn’t pay a lot but I was, my aunt helped.
MK:
Did you stay at Rosie’s?
RO:
Yes, my cousin. I was fortunate to see what the world was like and get a job and I
became the kind of the warehouse person there and repairman for the sewing machines
and you know I had tinkered with automobiles so this was very easy for me to do and I
repaired those things and got them ready for the salesmen to take out to sell. And that
was my job. So, we talk about the job and the relationship there too was very good. The
boss was, you know, considerate and appreciative of what I did. And I told him before I
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OHKI
started I said gee I think being the way that things are developing, I probably can’t stay
here and work much longer. And he said, “Why not?” And I said well circumstances on
the farm tells me that I need to go back. So that is the kind of work that I did as a
youngster.
MK:
They were so considerate, huh? Lots of people were nice even though?
RO:
In California, especially in California. Opportunities were there, but we just couldn’t
have gotten real fancy jobs.
MK:
No, no, no.
RO:
But I was, you know, still young yet.
MK:
Let’s see. It says what happened to you and your family? Did you go to camp? Which
Assembly Center and which camp and describe daily life in camp? Were you in camp
very long?
RO:
Well you know we all went to camp. We, of course, prepared ourselves to go and when
the day came we had a bag, a big duffle bag of stuff and all we could carry. And we went
to our church yard and there was a bus there and get on and take us to Merced. So we
just went with the rest of them, when the time came. And like I said, we just stored stuff
in our tank house and sold whatever we could, and left.
MK:
Now when you got into camp did you keep in touch with friends on the outside?
RO:
Well, yeah camp life was something else. Yes, well I think we did, mostly was for
business reasons, I guess.
MK:
I see.
RO:
I don’t think too many classmates or?
MK:
Friends?
17
RO:
OHKI
Friends came or the war, after all, war was going on. A lot of them were gone to the
military and so forth so. I think some friends even came to visit us but not very often
though. But we were in Merced for about three or four months I guess. And right away
you know they set up jobs for us and I became a post man and mail, mailman so I
enjoyed doing that. It was a good kind of a job of being able to take mail out to people
and that way, we got acquainted with other people in the camp, too. That was neat.
MK:
Yeah that was good.
RO:
Because you know, they were from other towns all around which we had never met
before.
MK:
You married after you got out of camp, didn’t you?
RO:
Yeah, yeah. As far as camp and then we left for Amache and Colorado in September and
immediately when we got there, we had to settle and make some furniture and things like
that but then we had so many job offers to go to so. I went to work on farm in Rocky
Ford which is maybe less than a hundred miles away and we harvested sugar beets and
worked on this farm until we finished that job. And it was—I think that was good
experience too because we learned about people in Rocky Ford, you know, and there was
a little Japanese community there, too. I think I went to church there. But, so and then
the job was done naturally so then I came back, but there were about five or six of us
working together there.
MK:
It says how do you feel about being put into camp because of your Japanese ancestry?
RO:
Oh yeah, that’s a question. Well it’s something like we say in Japanese, you can’t help it.
MK:
Yeah.
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RO:
OHKI
And because of the circumstances yeah and racial and nationality, I felt oh we can’t help
it so I would rather do that than fight the Americans here.
MK:
Yeah, yeah.
RO:
You know and I guess we would have suffered less abuse.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
Because I can remember my mother telling me that during the First World War, the
German people that she was friends with.
MK:
Friends with?
RO:
Had a very hard time. They were really prejudiced, people prejudiced against them and
gave them a bad time. So I felt gee, is that going to happen to us? And so I—I didn’t
think just that we couldn’t stay and do our thing. But, camp life—well it was a necessity
but I didn’t think it was—it kept us away from other harm.
MK:
When you left camp you went to farming then?
RO:
Well yeah, leaving camp was a real (inaudible) and when they opened it up in the spring
time of 1943, I guess it was, the opportunities were so much that people were recruiting
us out of camp and things we could go in so I was and in college, too I studied in
agriculture and got my basic things that I learned there. So I said gee I am going to go to
one of the best farming areas in the United States. And I didn’t know that corn and stuff
but anyway I was Midwestern so I went to Iowa to farm, to learn to—to work on a farm
and I stayed with a family, I was single and they fed me and gave me a room and took me
to town once in a while.
MK:
Well that was nice.
19
RO:
OHKI
But anyway I went to work on his farm which was cattle and we had some pigs and we
had lots of corn. And so we fed the pigs and a couple of cows but they were beef cattle.
MK:
They are not so hard.
RO:
So it wasn’t difficult as milking so many.
MK:
So in the meantime, where was your mother? Was she in camp then?
RO:
Yes, my mother never left camp and my sister stayed with her.
MK:
Oh Annie huh?
RO:
And I know my two brothers left with the army right away and then my other brother
stayed for a little while but he left and went to work I think in Chicago. So—
MK:
Well Annie was still in high school then?
RO:
Yes. She graduated.
MK:
She was like my sister Ruth.
RO:
Yeah, she graduated in Amache.
MK:
She was with her mother then?
RO:
Yeah and are we talking about relocation now yeah. Any questions?
MK:
Resettlement it says.
RO:
Oh.
MK:
When did you leave camp?
RO:
I left camp well. I left camp with some of my friends like Fred Kishi and Tach, no it
wasn’t Tach, my cousin Elsa and another girl. I can’t think of her name now. So I rode
the train with them and I got off in Kansas City and they continued on to their destination
back east.
MK:
Oh, uh-huh. And that was kind of sad, huh?
20
OHKI
RO:
Yeah.
MK:
You had to go by yourself.
RO:
I had to go by myself to there but we were rode across Kansas in the train together and of
course, that was good. And then Fred went to Maryland to college, University of
Maryland. Elsa and her friend went to Michigan. I think it was Detroit and so we
departed at a certain point and I went north into Iowa and of course, in Iowa the hostel
there was waiting for us there. We had a friends church, friends, actually they are
Quakers. They befriended us and they had a hostel in Des Moines.
MK:
Like in Detroit, we were in Tanabe. Do you remember him?
RO:
Yes.
MK:
He had a little hostel and we stayed there until we got into our jobs.
RO:
Well those were helpful for our settlement and they also provided—we were always
welcome to come back and so on weekends many times I was able to be there with some
of the other Nisei folks in Des Moines.
MK:
Since you were going to a farm, you didn’t have any trouble getting a job then?
RO:
No, we, this was already selected.
MK:
Oh I see.
RO:
We had correspondence. I was in fact they came to the station and got me.
MK:
Oh I see.
RO:
And so first thing we did is; we went to the hostel. They knew that the hostel was—you
see the hostel I think they were able to recruit us, too.
MK:
Oh, recruit you.
21
RO:
OHKI
Apparently, so they were kind of connected with that somehow and I met the director
and—
MK:
Really, so they really didn’t have any discrimination then, huh? They were all prepared
for most of us.
RO:
They were—they were very much so and I found the Iowans didn’t have any inkling of
who we are but they also didn’t have much prejudice either. They didn’t have any
prejudice to speak of. I—so I enjoyed the, the, you know.
MK:
I guess it’s the way that Japanese or Nisei are, that it is appealing to them. You know,
you are not too over bearing and always kind of, you know, quiet and not too—
RO:
Well, you know, we grew up knowing our situation, I guess, and we had to adjust to
things and I think we adjusted to the fact that you didn’t want to get anybody mad at you.
So, I think we had some training in that. And it wasn’t too easy, it wasn’t too hard. I
wasn’t too afraid of people so I was happy to be there alone more or less even.
MK:
Now you weren’t treated roughly or discriminated or anything or racial prejudice.
RO:
No.
MK:
That is amazing.
RO:
No, there was only one incident I could talk about but in Iowa, I went to work on this
farm and it wasn’t long before I knew this little town called Cummings was a Catholic
town. So I wasn’t a Catholic so I knew so kind of just a little further distance but it was a
neighboring town I was able to go to the---in a little while I was at the church there, a
community church and they welcomed me like anybody else.
MK:
They must have prepared their constituents about this because I never felt discriminated
against either, never had any problems.
22
RO:
OHKI
They were curious about us and about our promiscuousness or whatever because they
didn’t want us to bother their girls or sisters, I guess, because I went to camp one summer
camp and the first question they asked was that, about that.
MK:
How did they put it?
RO:
Well he said are you—have you—what is that word? Scattered any seeds? I didn’t know
what that meant really. So I said, no I don’t think I’ve done that.
MK:
You’ve planted alfalfa.
RO:
Yeah, right I’ve scattered seeds that way. But—
MK:
That is interesting.
RO:
That was very—he was to the point. He wanted to know my character.
MK:
My goodness.
RO:
I said, okay and after that I was okay. You know.
MK:
Isn’t that funny. I wonder if they thought that all Japanese were that way?
RO:
No, he wanted to make sure that I wasn’t one of those guys that—
MK:
Go after the girls.
RO:
Yeah, and were promiscuous.
MK:
Promiscuous yeah. Did he have daughters?
RO:
I don’t know. But this was a camp, a youth camp and I was older than most of them.
MK:
Oh okay.
RO:
I was already twenty-two, twenty-three and most of them were, you know, high school
age.
MK:
That is interesting. I’m glad I asked you. It would be very interesting about that.
RO:
So anyway, people adopted me there. I have very happy about that.
23
OHKI
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
Okay, the only experience about prejudices, one day a lady asked me—she saw me on
this bus and what type of bus they had in Des Moines and before I got off, she said
something about, are you from Japan? And questions like that you know and of course I
spoke English just like she did and I said, “No, I was born and raised here and I’m a
citizen of this country and all that.” And she was trying to question my loyalty, I think
but I told her that my brothers were serving in Italy and one of them had just died or was
killed in action there so our family is part of this citizenry and part of the people here.
And so we are, you know, and so she didn’t say anything actually after that. But I’m glad
somebody asked me something like that because I wasn’t able to say anything else like
that to anybody.
MK:
Yeah once you say it you have it exactly you know what you are going to do and say if
somebody else asks you.
RO:
Well, yeah but sometimes it was hard to put the question and I think the church people
also wanted to—they must have tested me a little bit about and I accepted things in their
church and I think I even—when they had a big gathering where they asked if you were
children of God and you wanted to be part of it and you know something, I had never
been in my life but I did go with the others and said, “Yes, I am.”
MK:
Child of God?
RO:
Yeah, I am a believer in Christ and all that stuff, you know. They weren’t very
fundamental but yet they had this occasionally, they did this.
MK:
Hmm, let’s see. You weren’t a student huh? It says how were you treated by other
students?
24
RO:
OHKI
Well you mean. That is maybe before the war. But I had, you know, Caucasian friends
in college. They became my closest friends.
MK:
Oh, this is resettlement so.
RO:
Oh this is resettlement but I mean going back a little ways I remember that. They were
my buddies.
MK:
Yeah, do you get to see them a lot now?
RO:
No, one of them died in the fifties and the other one I saw in the fifties, but I haven’t seen
them since though.
MK:
Who are these? Do we know them?
RO:
Well he’s Italian.
MK:
Oh okay.
RO:
He’s Italian too you know and the United States was in the war against them and I didn’t
get to talk to him about that. He was selling Real Estate in Modesto.
MK:
Oh.
RO:
I need to talk to him and it is unfortunate that our friend died. We played tennis together
that is how we knew each other. But, you know I don’t think I felt much prejudice. The
students were –I think the students our age were friendly, especially in this valley.
MK:
Yeah, yeah.
RO:
In the cities maybe not, but here.
MK:
Yeah, all the friends that we had you know they never did get mad or dislike us because
we were Japanese.
RO:
I don’t think so.
MK:
Yeah.
25
RO:
OHKI
So we grew up in a very congenial place and I think it showed that we didn’t have those
kinds of fears so much.
MK:
I would say. Compared to what you hear you know it was pretty nice like my major
teacher, my major in Cal she sent me a book that she wrote you know, afterwards and she
was so nice and I guess she is gone now.
RO:
Yeah, we do remember our teachers after we came back.
MK:
But she didn’t say much about you know the government and denounced the government
for doing such a thing and she was always good to me and gave me her book, you know.
Let’s see.
RO:
Well yeah.
MK:
You told me why you went to different places. In terms of your children, were they part
of extended family? No, you don’t need to answer that. Japanese community, they
were?
RO:
Kids, oh yeah. But even before I met—in Iowa I was—I should talk a little bit about
what happened there for history’s sake. You know my boss, he was kind of a gentle
farmer so he expected me to do the tractor work and in Iowa, that was what it was. You
didn’t do much hand work fortunately and that kind of thought that was better than truck
farming or so. So he kind of used me to do, till the soil and this and that. And the first
year that I did that, but in the harvesting of the first crop when I was there in September
or so, we were harvesting corn for other farmers because he had a corn picker. A corn
picker and there weren’t that many and they were short so they needed a corn picker.
Well, we went from farm to farm or a few of them and finally came to a farm of an old
couple that was leasing the ground to one of the neighbors. And they wanted to push the
26
OHKI
lease because I don’t know what—I guess they knew another person that wanted to quit
the farm or something and they came and asked me about it, “Do you want to farm here?”
And I said gee that is a strange question or a good question. And I said, “Yeah, I’ll talk it
over with my boss and we’ll see what we can do.” So together we decided to take on
another hundred and sixty acres of—
MK:
With your boss?
RO:
With my boss and we were partners in that operation. So to do that, you know, I had to
buy a tractor and you know plow and something else, I think, three items I think it was.
So, anyway we had to—we decided okay it’s a good farm and nice and fairly flat and a
good crop so we said okay. I said you know I think we can manage it, he and I, and he
had something in town that he had to go to pretty often so I didn’t see him that much.
But the tractor was not too hard. So I bought this tractor from one of the neighbors,
somebody there had one for sale and but I asked, I got, I asked our manager here in
Livingston to send me eleven hundred dollars I think it was for this tractor and equipment
and I needed to buy a car so anyway I asked for these items you know, and he said okay,
you got enough money but don’t ask for any more. So, anyway I was able to buy this
tractor and we farmed together for three seasons. And so, we split (inaudible) the profits
and I paid my expenses, whatever and, you know, and I came back—I came back after
the crop was harvested so he sent me some more money for me to use over here which I
thought but anyway, that was successful and I appreciated that. It was good experience
in farming. And so relocation to me and the way Nisei got around after we left
California, was something that I think everybody says this, something we never would
have done if we stayed here. And this way, yeah.
27
MK:
OHKI
Yeah, like I never would have the experience of running a nursery school and then Butch
went to work with an Orthodontist and so he knew a lot about that, too.
RO:
Isn’t that interesting? And so I had—I really don’t have much animosity against them.
MK:
That’s right.
RO:
Yeah, we lost profits but that is money only.
MK:
Yeah and you had your farm.
RO:
And we had the farm when we came back and were able to continue on so life turned out
so different than what we thought when we were kids. And I never forget how I
appreciate during relocation what our boys did in the military.
MK:
Yeah overseas.
RO:
Overseas because that was in the news and even coming back to California, this was
something later but I knew we did our part you know.
MK:
Yeah, that was the best thing to happen to have the Japanese soldiers together because
that seemed to show off the courage and things they did. If they were scattered among all
the other kinds of people, you wouldn’t have noticed you know the group that worked so
well during the war so.
RO:
Well—
MK:
It was funny thing to do to put all the Japanese together but maybe it was good, too.
RO:
Well that is the good part of it, we had some hardships there but it wasn’t all that bad.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
And yet, yeah, I don’t know who’s wisdom that was.
MK:
Well I kind of think it was people that kind of doubted putting them together or
something. I don’t know.
28
RO:
OHKI
But I, you know, of course, I give someone like Masaoka a lot of credit as a JACL—he
was a director, national director of helping us through our ordeal. And there were so
many people against him on the other hand I don’t know if our Sanseis and the future
generation could appreciate this but it took somebody to guide the whole herd. I really
appreciate that.
MK:
Well that was very interesting. Thank you Robert. I don’t think I need to—do I need to
ask you anymore?
RO:
Well there are some things about you know afterwards but the relocation was something
else and you know coming back to Livingston was another thing. I told my mother that
gee I would just as soon stay in Iowa. I got some things back in Iowa and yeah I said I
know I’m the oldest and I’m expected to come back so I’ll do that. So—
MK:
Well you know it would have been hard for Isseis in different.
RO:
Yeah, they still had to finish their life and we have they have some family responsibilities
so I felt this was something but it was okay for me to come back and a little more
profitable for me maybe. So, I had to leave Iowa again another place that I sort of liked
and start over here. But starting over, it was a challenge, and I think opportunities
opened up here and you know, our community came back here and almost everybody got
their farms back.
MK:
That was really good.
RO:
And we farmed cooperatively and finally we all got together as one cooperative and after
that, we made pretty good strides in our business. We were able to you know enlarge our
businesses and really all the things I dreamed about came true. You know.
MK:
That’s good.
29
RO:
OHKI
It’s funny. I remember when we were in a Boy Scout meeting one time and our Boy
Scout leader Mr. Carpenter said, “You know in your lifetime maybe your gross income
for all that time might be somewhere around fifty thousand dollars.” I said, “Yeah maybe
that is right.” And I was only twelve or fourteen then and then, heck, came back and I
used to make that much money and I mean so I said, God. So a lot of dreams changed
and the post war for our good and—
MK:
Yeah, good things happen if you look for it there is something good out of it.
RO:
Yeah.
MK:
That is my philosophy.
RO:
If you look at it negatively.
MK:
Yeah, then it’s all bad.
RO:
I think we learned that like we said when we grew up here.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
So, we are positive about things. So anyway, so like I say many things that I thought I
dreamt about maybe but things came to reality and gee, how nice it was that we grew up
in this generation.
MK:
That’s right, yeah.
RO:
And we are different but then on the other hand, we became a, I don’t know, a group that
really I think we are professional people that went into big things. I think really proved
what we were made out of.
MK:
Yeah. Yeah, I remember.
RO:
Yeah.
30
MK:
OHKI
Like you know we used to hear that people from Cortez didn’t like the Livingston people
and stuff like that. And when I started to go around with Butch, well Butch was in the
hospital and they found a spot so he had to stay with the rest of us that were in camp and
he used to always be out there, he was—he was in the hospital a while too but he got out
and we used to sit in the sun or squat on the ground or sit on a box and got to know him
real well but when I was saying good-bye to him, he was still in the hospital with Butch
you know and he made me promise to marry him. So at least he liked me, I guess. You
know they used to think that Livingston girl. And I think they really had a doubt about
Livingston people because we were so much more advanced socially.
RO:
Some ways socially. I don’t know.
MK:
But anyway.
RO:
Well.
MK:
Funny experience but I’ll never forget that time, promise me that you are going to marry
Butch, okay, okay.
RO:
Well that happened early for you. That was nice.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
And so see I didn’t and like I said I had to make a decision and that was kind of hard.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
You know and I think life did turn around for Nisei in post-war. I think the pioneers
never could have dreamt that things like this could change so much.
MK:
That’s right.
RO:
So we developed with all our attributes and were able to do stuff. You know I was in
JACL cabinet for a number of years and I used to go to meetings and I know that these
31
OHKI
guys are professionals over there, you know. My God, they had responsible jobs and you
know I always thought it wouldn’t happen unless we proved ourselves. And we proved it
in many ways and we left when relocation started and it changed our prospective about
what life was about and we just developed and blossomed out. I felt that.
MK:
We learned a lot by being put in a new situation and having to make a go of it.
RO:
There you go. The challenge was there and the challenge to come back and restart but
you know I never thought that I’d be worth much or anything.
MK:
Me too.
RO:
But I’m still not that rich but it’s enough to sustain us and I really am happy that we were
able to come back.
MK:
Yeah, when we were in Detroit what was it, three years ago I think and we went to the
place where I used to work you know and I didn’t know anybody there anymore, but I
talked to the director and said I was here and everything and she was so happy you know.
Yeah, and I don’t think any of the sisters knew we were there because it has been years
now.
RO:
Yeah, so you know I think in my case I started going outside of the community. Well I
had church conference responsibilities. And so I used to go to the annual conferences
and then you know in the late fifties we started the Lion’s Club. And you know our
friendship enlarged after that.
MK:
Yeah, that is right.
RO:
And with that I knew so many more people.
MK:
Keep talking?
32
RO:
OHKI
Well I don’t know how much time we’ve got. So, you know I was able to do other things
and I was fortunate to get on other boards. And they were all those organizations that
served the community and helped other people prosper or whatever. And be a school
trustee and you know that they let Nisei do that in Livingston. And they were an
influence in our educational system here. You know like Buddy Iwata you know, he was
the trustee of the first school and he started the college and he wanted to retire so he
asked for somebody to help and so I said oh I’ll help you. And so we were able to
contribute and so you know we were able to travel, Martha. We have been with our class
on travel trips and you know those things really added to our life. And there are a lot of
fulfilling experiences. We all had so to this day I am happy like you said.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
And like my family you know we had five children and three girls and two boys. The
girls left home early, after high school they wanted to be more independent. Boys stuck
around and they are still here but they are farming our properties that we wanted to retire
so, somewhat so we left them do the farming.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
And they are getting along okay I think although not as good as I’d like them to but they
are getting along good I guess.
MK:
Oh yeah, they will make it. All the kids are. They have good common sense and they do
what they like and what they want to.
RO:
Yeah.
MK:
You know they are not unhappy or anything.
33
RO:
OHKI
And I’m happy. Like Father’s Day the girls send me their little notes and tears come to
your eyes and they say, “Gee, you are the best father I could have had.” You know or
something like that. My God, how can that be, but it is possible. And they appreciate us.
The boys don’t seem to say those kinds of things.
MK:
Yeah, yeah uh huh.
RO:
But lately though we get along much better.
MK:
That’s good.
RO:
Trust each other more and stuff like that.
MK:
Well when they get to a certain age, they get pretty sensible. Judy is probably the best
mother of the two of them. Of course she has several different fathers maybe but you
know she is a good mother and the kids are fine and so they go through their mistakes but
they end up okay.
RO:
Yeah, it seemed like they had to learn through mistakes and so gee, we just have to say
okay, let them learn. But it hurts the parents to watch this go on. But so we had one
divorce in Michael’s case and yeah. But it’s, but he has custody so he has responsibility
for his family. He takes care of them.
MK:
Yeah, those kids are so good though, so cute and smart and everything else.
RO:
Well I don’t know. Did we cover the subjects Martha?
MK:
Yeah, I think so. You could look at this and see. Yeah, I don’t know you did it quite
thoroughly. I didn’t do it as much but that’s okay.
RO:
Well coming back to my uncles were farming here as partners you might say. But you
know and maybe I didn’t go through enough about him but so my father wasn’t into the
picture but shortly after he came, within ten years they were having a hard time, really
34
OHKI
hard time. So and they, the corporation they had to sell, not sell I think actually the banks
had to take over. But, but he survived on his own and he died but he left the place for us
so. And it was up to us to do the rest which I guess we managed some way.
MK:
How old were you when your father--?
RO:
I was eleven.
MK:
Oh is that right.
RO:
And I was the oldest so.
MK:
Yeah, I know it. So your mother sure did a good job. I have to tell you this but you don’t
have to put it on, but one time Annie was over here and playing with my sister. They
were good friends you know. And I think we still had the shack and things and she, my
sister said that Ruth said later that Annie told me that I don’t have manners because we
don’t have a mother. And I think Annie was kind of a good, good girl. And everything
was—
RO:
She didn’t have a father so what you know. She didn’t have a father though.
MK:
Yeah, but that’s what Annie said.
RO:
You didn’t have a mother’s, a lady’s point of view in your life.
MK:
Yeah. But you don’t have manners. My mother said that you don’t have manners
because you don’t have a mother. That made me so mad.
RO:
(laughing)
MK:
But I think Ruth appreciates me quite a bit because after all, I was kind of her mother
substitute so. And she was I don’t know how old was she when our mother died?
Her
mother died? I think she was in kindergarten or something so she has been motherless
for a long time. Wait a minute. Yeah, she was quite a bit younger than I am but anyway.
35
RO:
OHKI
Well anyway. You know even post-war with travels we were certainly fortunate to go
and be with our cousins that we never saw before and I met—and I went to see one of my
aunts and she died shortly after that but she was the wife of my mother’s, one of her
favorite brothers living in Japan.
MK:
Oh I see.
RO:
So she married into the family but he was an architect in Japan and he built buildings in
Komoto as an architect.
MK:
So the boys were just three boys I had one in Mexico an uncle and one and my uncle and
my father so there were only three of them. And—I think we had aunts but I don’t know
who they are.
RO:
Yeah, and they, one cousin in Komoto doesn’t speak English so it was difficult-well I
was able to speak Japanese to him and then I met his sister too and that was a bonus to
me because I didn’t even know that she was around.
MK:
Oh.
RO:
And that was real nice.
MK:
How long ago was it, you were in Japan?
RO:
What?
MK:
How long ago did you go?
RO:
Well the first time I met him was 1969.
MK:
Oh I see. Boy that is forty years ago.
RO:
Yeah.
MK:
I mean almost.
36
RO:
OHKI
I went on a tour then. So, and then I stayed and visited their home the first time I was
there and visited my aunt and that was very nice. So we had ties with cousins there and I
thought how nice but I haven’t met all of my father’s side because I only met them since
about 1995. But I hope we get to go back and see them, too.
MK:
Well my sister stayed in Japan until she was about sixteen so, my older sister so she was
raised by her cousin’s family I guess. So anyway, so you know but she doesn’t—I guess
she writes to them all the time. That is my oldest sister Mimio.
RO:
Well the Japanese did do well in Livingston. Even the Issei folks owned quite a bit of
property here. In fact, your father was doing what they had now, a hundred and sixty
acres? Well my uncles well there were three of them and my father they owned well into
the two hundreds. I don’t know what it was. And I guess they kind of went overboard a
little so when hard times came up, I guess they couldn’t make it, cash flow and pay off,
whatever they had to do.
MK:
Yeah, and so we lost the other side but we had this forty acres thing so.
RO:
Yeah right and so my uncles, they lost all the property so my father started on his own
which was fortunate. Well, we are going to conclude that. Have our cameraman shut it
off.
MK:
Honey, can you turn.
RO:
Well Martha I can go back and push the button.
MK:
Oh. Well what do we say? Just say.
RO:
This terminates our—
MK:
This terminates our discussion.
RO:
Thank you.
37
OHKI
ROBERT OHKI
INTERVIEWER:
MARTHA KAJIWARA
DATE:
June 22, 1999
MK:
And he is now about sixty years old. Can you tell us about where in Japan that your
ancestors came from and what circumstances made them decide to come to the United
States?
RO:
Well first, today the date is June 22, 1999. Okay the thing about my parents. My mother
is from Chiba-ken which is the little town was Mubara where she was born and raised
and the reason she gave for coming to the United States is that her brothers were here.
She has three brothers living in Livingston farming and they wanted to bring their sister
here to the United States. So she came here as a student and when she came here she
enrolled in the University of California and she is an alumni of the University of
California. My father came here because he was the second son, his name is Zengiro and
he is second son of the family and he felt from what I understand that the second son does
not get an inheritance in Japan and he wanted an opportunity to for his life and felt that
the United States would be the place for him to come. So he came here as a young man
probably before he was twenty, eighteen or so. And he is from Saitama. And his family
was a large family. I think they had about ten or eleven kids in the family. I was
fortunate enough to visit there in 1994 or 1995 is when we went the last time.
MK:
Are you finished? Well, —
RO:
Well, I have cousins there too that are living and I was fortunate to meet the cousins on
my mother’s side. And only one cousin from my father’s side and he is the son of the
oldest brother of my father. So it was nice that we were able to meet and the thing about
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him is, he told us he knew about my brothers, you know, living in the United States. He
knew about our family quite a bit but I certainly didn’t know too much about my father’s
side because he died when I was eleven and I don’t think I talked to him very much about
his family. All of these things that I learned was from my mother.
MK:
What was— do you recall any of the hard times discrimination or so forth in your family
or that your family faced?
RO:
Well, I think when I was younger, I think I felt, gee, why am I Japanese and not like the
rest of them. On the other hand, I think in Livingston, we were fortunate that we didn’t
feel as much discrimination in school and teachers and leaders in our community. I think
some of them were anti-Japanese but at least, there was, since we had such a community
here and it seems that our parents sort of smoothed things out in Livingston and we had
some pretty good— well you know people that can smooth things out and that type of
things. And it kind of helped the community grow like that and we were fortunate as
youngsters.
MK:
Now what success or experience have there been in the family or have there been any
unusual experiences?
RO:
Now this was all when I was growing up but I think my uncles did okay in there—did
well in their farming until hard times hit and I think they have gone through all the
depression before the twenties I think and they survived. But they were in farming and
my sister worked, I have three uncles here and they farmed more and more ground. They
owned more and more. In Livingston, we had corporations that they operated under, so
that’s because they couldn’t own property, they were able to form a corporation; they
were able to stay in business, get into business and buy property and so forth. But I think
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we, in the late twenties, I know my oldest uncle had a stroke so he wasn’t able to function
too well and then the 1929 Depression came and by that time, you know, and in 1930 or
so they terminated the farming operation. But in 1930 though, my father was able to
purchase the property that we live on now which is not the same area where I was born
because I was born right near town, the city of Livingston, and this was 1919, November
15th, and so we—he was able to start us over again on this property that he bought. And
it was forty acres of grape vineyards (inaudible) and there was some alfalfa growing there
so we could feed our horses to farm with. That sort of thing that we started in 1930, the
hard part I think was when my father died in 1931, after he set us up on this farm. And
our family, there were four boys and one sister that was the youngest. We were all born
within seven years. From the time they were married, I guess that was about eight years
so my mother had to take care of all of us and she was not a farmer. So and you know
anyway she came here to be a student but in the past in Japan, she also went to college
and was a school teacher, elementary school teacher in Japan before her brothers called
her to come to the United States. So she was not a farmer but she was—well she came
here during the World War, the First World War, so it was probably around 1915 or so
when she arrived. And so after my father died, yes, it was very hard for my mother being
that she never had farmed and done any physical labor. But I was eleven and my brothers
and we had four boys born first so we were, you know, able to help my mother somewhat
even then. But I think what helped also was the community, our friends even helped us
on the farm, too. Of course we paid them a little bit I don’t know, but I know she paid
them. And they were good enough to help us when crops needed to be harvested or there
was lots of work that we couldn’t do as kids, you know. And that’s the way we—well
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until we grew up in high school and so forth. And so that was hard times all right but I
guess we never did feel hungry or anything like that. And my mother taught Japanese
school too so, that was part of her, well, stipend you might say she got. And there was
also work at the packing house that the ladies would come to pack fruit there in the
summer and that was, you know, always ways of earning something helped us survive the
depression. Plus the farm, it was a way to get started and as we got older, it got easier
actually.
MK:
With so many boys, you were lucky.
RO:
Well, yeah, we were lucky to have four boys.
MK:
What were your reactions when you first heard about the bombing of Pearl Harbor?
RO:
Well, it was a Sunday and we were at church that day and I was sitting in our car and had
the radio on and of course, the Nisei didn’t go to Japanese service. So our parents, my
mother was in the church. So I heard it. I directly, the first newscast about the bomb, I
heard that about the thing that happened and nobody of course, the people didn’t know
about it until they heard later. But I was there and heard the first newscast about the
bombing and thought what are we going to do now?
MK:
Do you remember how was it given? How was the newscaster, how did he put it, the
newscaster?
RO:
Why he wasn’t anti-Japanese so much. He was really telling what was happening in
Hawaii and you could hear the airplane noise, too.
MK:
Oh my.
RO:
So, and all the explosions and things like that that was taking place. There was not too
much information about how they came or what.
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MK:
It was right then.
RO:
Yes, they were telling us what was happening right there.
MK:
That was interesting. You are lucky you heard that. There were lots of people that didn’t
hear it, you know the newscast. How did the—well you told us how the non-Japanese
related to you. They were all pretty good to you. Did you have any discriminations or
something ever face?
RO:
Well once in the while we would hear the “J” word but and I didn’t like that but on the
other hand, we had to take it as lightly as we could. But other than that, I think the school
experience and all discrimination didn’t seem to be very evident, especially in
Livingston.
MK:
Being in a small town everybody knew each other and I think that is what is good about
it. What did your family do with your home and belongings during the internment?
RO:
Well, of course, our community when we started hearing about evacuation, one of the
farmers, we decided to have a manager manage our farms because everybody couldn’t
find somebody to manage the farms. After all, there were about sixty some, sixty-five
families in Livingston that were farming you might say. And so there was a group
decision to hire a manager. Some of our farmers found their own managers or their own
people that they trusted, but in our case, we joined with the group that would manage it
for us. So we had meetings to organize this and we were able to and we had friends that
became trustees to watch over our operator and in their absence. Fortunately we had
three people that were, became our trustees and that was Mr. Winston and Mr. Griswald
and Mr. Stringer, who wanted to help us relocate or whatever during our war, during the
war and they took care of our business.
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MK:
Yeah and they were very kind to do that for us. What did your family own?
RO:
Oh, what did you we do with our belongings?
MK:
Yeah, belongings I guess you did the same thing we did.
RO:
Well, I don’t recall. We sold most of it, like our automobiles, we sold those kinds of
things and the piano, I don’t know what happened to it. But the big things you know,
they were all, we retrieved them all after we came back. I think we put some of the
things in our tank house and shut the doors tight and nailed it down whatever but I think
the people still got inside and looked at things. But I guess nobody, we didn’t find too
many things destroyed.
MK:
Was anyone in your family arrested by the FBI?
RO:
No, no, none of our family.
MK:
We forgot to say (inaudible) brother was, you know. Were you inducted into the military
service, how did the internment and how did the internment experience and WWII affect
your choice of career in life?
RO:
Well, no I think when we were in camp, we were asked to show our loyalty by the
questionnaire and I was affirmative of being a citizen and all. But at that time, also or
soon after I guess, military service, was, they were asking for volunteers for the infantry.
Yeah, I being the oldest I wasn’t sure what my role should be but before I knew it, before
I could, before much decision on my part, my one brother came and told me he was the
second one said that he had volunteered for the infantry. He was going to go. And then in
a little while later, my youngest brother came back and said he had signed his name and
he is going to volunteer. So I had two brothers that were volunteering for the infantry
that was, you know, the regiment they were wanting to form for the Japanese-Americans.
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But later on in life, I was deferred because I did, you know—I had deferment things. But
you are talking about military, well this is probably after I left camp but my time for
induction finally came and my draft board asked me to take a physical exam, which I
passed, and this was already about 1944. And so I had my physical exam and they said
that I was 1A but on the other hand, I was to get inducted about three or four months later
in 1944 but for some reason the draft board said your induction has been stayed. So I
was never—
MK:
Probably because you are the oldest of the family too.
RO:
Well by that time, I think that my brother was killed in action.
MK:
Oh I see.
RO:
In Italy and then I don’t know why, but the draft board, and maybe the war was slowing
down, I don’t know. They just said don’t come to induction. So that is why I didn’t—I
wasn’t in the army.
MK:
Well that’s good, lucky for you and your family.
RO:
Well, I sort of wanted to go for some reason.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
For some reason I was ready to go and they said you are 1A and I said okay just tell me
when. But anyway I’ll talk about this later with my business and relocation.
MK:
I think—what do you remember about your family life? Entertainment, hardships you
had mentioned some of the hardships but—
RO:
Well, the family life I think, our family of five children and of course my mother and the
later part of our youth there at home until the war started, we were compatible and I think
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we just did the normal things that kids did and just enjoyed whatever we had and my
mother was, well—she wanted us to grow up normally so I guess that is what we did.
MK:
She did a good job with so many children. It says here, what schools did you go and how
did you feel about school? How were you treated and who were your playmates?
RO:
Well, I enjoyed school from the beginning. The family were education-oriented and they
just wanted us to be Americans really. So we all had American names, too. My mother,
our parents didn’t give us any Japanese names, which I wish I had many times. But
anyway, so that was their goal. And I took school seriously, I learned what I was
supposed to learn, I think.
MK:
You were always a model student.
RO:
Yeah, I had fairly good grades. So I guess I could appreciate the fact of what the parents
insisted about growing up and schooling and we tried our best and tried to be, you know,
good whatever we did and I think we had so many Japanese kids in our community and
in school, I don’t know what the percentage was, but other than my class in high school
we were one third of the class were Japanese, Niseis, and there were about a hundred and
five or so that graduated together with the rest. And about in our number, we had about
thirty-three I think of those who were classmates. So we had a lot of common interests
and I think we just kind of enjoyed growing up here in Livingston.
MK:
Were you ever invited to the homes of Caucasian children?
RO:
Not that much, very often I don’t think but we did have friends that were Caucasian and I
think we felt very, you know, very comfortable with who we were with. So at this early
age we didn’t feel so much, except I know that when our older Nisei went to college for
instance and the thing was, could they get a job? You know and I think there was a lot of
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discrimination there. Boy, they couldn’t get jobs especially for what they were qualified
for.
MK:
They were over-qualified.
RO:
Yeah, and so I noticed that many of our friends that were older, well, got jobs with
Japanese companies, for instance, and they got started that way. But for us, we, to me, I
did wonder about gee what is our future going to be like? I personally felt, well, my
mother says well set a goal, anyway and all through school I think I was in the pre-med,
pre-medical curriculum so I could divert from that and so I would learn the technical
subjects as well as language and then she also said, you don’t go to school just to do
work. There are other things in life like culture and the Japanese have, you know, a lot of
culture.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
That we tried to remember I guess. We have tried to remember and I guess that was part
of our life, too.
MK:
Yeah, you had a very educated and strong mother so you got along pretty well even
though your dad died early.
RO:
That’s the thing in pre-war, my father died before the war but I didn’t get to learn too
much from him. All I know is that he was a good worker. He came and got married here
in Livingston to my mother. I don’t know how they met but I think it is through friends,
not through third party so much, not through the Japanese (bishiyaku-nin) process but
more through friends. Of course he lived in Fresno so, the Fresno people, my mother had
a classmate or school mate from college in Japan that lived in Fresno so we were in touch
with Fresno people somewhat.
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MK:
Is that how you married Julia?
RO:
That’s kind of a good question? My in fact, I’ll bring that up later.
MK:
You don’t have to answer but then I was curious.
RO:
Yeah, well you know, during school years we didn’t date much I don’t think I dated
anybody that I know of. I was kind of shy about that.
MK:
I think we just went with groups of people.
RO:
Yeah, we had a car you know and there were mixed groups. But I think some of them
that stayed in the community did have boyfriends and girlfriends you know that I can
remember so. But I didn’t do that. But anyway I guess I was a little shy.
MK:
Right. You and Eric were shy I think.
RO:
Yeah, some of us were a little shyer.
MK:
Yeah, he was at (inaudible) and I used to tease Eric all the time.
RO:
Well good thing you didn’t tease me but it was all right, if you did, I guess.
MK:
Well we knew you too well and we didn’t know Eric.
RO:
But you girls, you know, growing up you helped us too because you encouraged us to do
some things we wouldn’t do on our own, you know. Be a little braver and teach us to
dance. And participate so I have to thank all you girls.
MK:
Oh you are welcome. As a child did you consider yourself Japanese, or JapaneseAmerican or American?
RO:
I sort of thought of this before but I thought I was American first and so we didn’t have
a—I know my mother and father didn’t list us as Japanese citizens so we didn’t have a
dual citizenship thing at all in our family.
MK:
Oh, uh-huh. Yeah.
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So, and so I had I guess I always felt I was American but I always wondered why I was
Japanese and I was in this category but on the other hand, there was nothing we could do
about it. But I don’t know if I regret it or not but later in life, I think I felt that I was in
the right spot.
MK:
But what can you do if you are born.
RO:
Japanese yeah.
MK:
I know you had good relations with your mother. I don’t know your dad too well but
then it says, did you date? What did you do on your dates?
RO:
I know, like we said before I think we probably enjoyed each other like in groups or we
would go to swing parties and we all had fun together, kind of communal thing or youth
thing.
MK:
Youth group.
RO:
Yeah, fellowship group at the church.
MK:
Yeah, I don’t know what it was called.
RO:
We kind of participated with the other sex that way. I think more than individually.
MK:
Now here is an interesting question. What qualities did you look for in a husband or a
wife in your case? Did you look for certain qualities or was it (inaudible)?
RO:
Well, I’ll tell you, my mother, my mother was a, you know.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
She was particular who I married. I think a lot of Japanese parents were that way. But
one thing and they felt never marry out of the Japanese race.
MK:
Is that right?
RO:
That was one of her commands, you might say.
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MK:
Well at least you had commands. I don’t think my parents said anything to me.
RO:
So I don’t know. During the time I was away after camp I did meet some, you know,
Caucasian girls and I really liked them, you know. And it was maybe because I met them
at church and all that.
MK:
Outward, much more outward.
RO:
Yeah, yeah and easy to talk to I might say.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
And I felt I want to be your friend and something like that and I enjoyed that, you know.
Outside of that, of course, finding a spouse is a lot. To me it was one of the most
important decision that I was to make so it took me a long time. I was twenty-eight, I
think, before I got married.
MK:
Well Butch and I were from high school days so.
RO:
Well some people were courting in high school, you might say, but I didn’t do that and
neither did I do that in college so like you say Martha, I think I had to look. I had to look
over the field and just thinking and I thought more and more about my families’ friends.
And I thought, gee, maybe there is somebody among them, you know. And there was a
family that my mother—her classmate that came from LA, you know? And they had a
family. And I worked with one of them in camp, in the office, so I got acquainted with
the family you know, the mother and father. And siblings and there were two girls and a
boy in that family and I thought gee, that was a possibility. But anyway I think after I
started doing conferences and things post-war, I knew I had to decide and I finally
decided on a family that I think I could trust and had a good background and that’s the
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kind of thing that my mother taught me and my faith. And so I think, it kind of went that
way.
MK:
That’s good. It’s good that your mother taught you certain you know characteristics or
characters or attitude to look for in people.
RO:
The way it happened though is I married somebody from Fresno. My father lived there
as a bachelor and my mother knew some of the people in Fresno, too. But and she talked
about these families in Fresno so I was familiar with the family somewhat. And then I
found out later that they are the, what do you call them, in the church, and we were still in
the church there. So anyway I finally decided, I got to make up my mind and I said okay
I am going to ask this girl if you would be interested in getting together and getting
acquainted. I don’t know. Only way to put it, I knew I had to get serious.
MK:
Well that’s good. At least you had a certain, what do you call it? Certain kind of a
person in mind so you just don’t go flirting with anybody.
RO:
Yeah, you know and I know there was all kinds of opportunities for youngsters then
because most of them were not married yet.
MK:
A lot of Japanese around.
RO:
And there was a real close family friend in Fresno that my mother, that was her class—
her schoolmate and we used to visit Fresno to go to their house and stuff so. Oh yeah so
gee, that would be a good choice too, you know, but anyway I finally regretted that one
but like I say, to meet Julia and things went our way so I was fortunate.
MK:
Well that is good.
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It just—it just said okay and let’s be serious about it a little bit and I think it was through
work that we had youth conferences and we worked together to prepare for these
conferences and that sort of helped.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
That we got acquainted of course Julia said that is when she first knew me. (laughs)
MK:
Yes. That is good then. It is a good combination then and it ended up very well. Let’s
see. Let me see, were you, did you work out beside your farm when you were younger?
RO:
Yes, well, yes well after high school you know and I wasn’t able to go to school after the
junior college but I had a cousin that lived in Berkeley and my uncle moved to Berkeley
also after he left the farm. He became gardener.
MK:
Rosies?
RO:
Doing okay so, my aunt said sure come to the city and I could stay there and go to work
in the Bay Area. So I guess this was after that, about 1940 or so that I did that. Around
1940 and I was able to get employment there but, so I didn’t work on the farm for
anybody else after college, after two years. The reason I was able to go only two years is
my brothers had to go to school.
MK:
Oh yeah.
RO:
See, my brother was two grades under me and my mother said I don’t expect you to go to
the University this year, but I want your brother to go to junior college where I was after I
had graduated. So I said okay, we’ll take our turn, and we went to, he graduated from
there too by 1941 and so I guess I came to help on the farm but my other brothers were
old enough to—take and work on the farm to maintain the farm. And I said okay, I’ll go
and whatever I make I’ll just give it to the family.
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MK:
Oh I see.
RO:
And that’s how we supported each other. And far as work going when we were kids
being my father had died, to support the family we worked in the summer time whatever
jobs there were we worked at Okuye’s cutting peaches and doing dry yard work in the
summer. Harvesting things like that well our grapes were not ready that early in the
summer and they were ready later to harvest in September so. Early summer we would
work and support the family. Our aim was to have enough until summer came so we
could work out and earn our way until we sell our grapes.
MK:
I see.
RO:
But anyway that is about the kind of work I did. On the farm work before I went to
school.
MK:
Well you are reaping your harvest now. It turned out well for you.
RO:
So I went to work in the Bay area at Singer Sewing Machine Company.
MK:
Oh I remember, I vaguely remember that.
RO:
And you were still at the University of California at that time and I got a job there they
didn’t pay a lot but I was, my aunt helped.
MK:
Did you stay at Rosie’s?
RO:
Yes, my cousin. I was fortunate to see what the world was like and get a job and I
became the kind of the warehouse person there and repairman for the sewing machines
and you know I had tinkered with automobiles so this was very easy for me to do and I
repaired those things and got them ready for the salesmen to take out to sell. And that
was my job. So, we talk about the job and the relationship there too was very good. The
boss was, you know, considerate and appreciative of what I did. And I told him before I
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started I said gee I think being the way that things are developing, I probably can’t stay
here and work much longer. And he said, “Why not?” And I said well circumstances on
the farm tells me that I need to go back. So that is the kind of work that I did as a
youngster.
MK:
They were so considerate, huh? Lots of people were nice even though?
RO:
In California, especially in California. Opportunities were there, but we just couldn’t
have gotten real fancy jobs.
MK:
No, no, no.
RO:
But I was, you know, still young yet.
MK:
Let’s see. It says what happened to you and your family? Did you go to camp? Which
Assembly Center and which camp and describe daily life in camp? Were you in camp
very long?
RO:
Well you know we all went to camp. We, of course, prepared ourselves to go and when
the day came we had a bag, a big duffle bag of stuff and all we could carry. And we went
to our church yard and there was a bus there and get on and take us to Merced. So we
just went with the rest of them, when the time came. And like I said, we just stored stuff
in our tank house and sold whatever we could, and left.
MK:
Now when you got into camp did you keep in touch with friends on the outside?
RO:
Well, yeah camp life was something else. Yes, well I think we did, mostly was for
business reasons, I guess.
MK:
I see.
RO:
I don’t think too many classmates or?
MK:
Friends?
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RO:
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Friends came or the war, after all, war was going on. A lot of them were gone to the
military and so forth so. I think some friends even came to visit us but not very often
though. But we were in Merced for about three or four months I guess. And right away
you know they set up jobs for us and I became a post man and mail, mailman so I
enjoyed doing that. It was a good kind of a job of being able to take mail out to people
and that way, we got acquainted with other people in the camp, too. That was neat.
MK:
Yeah that was good.
RO:
Because you know, they were from other towns all around which we had never met
before.
MK:
You married after you got out of camp, didn’t you?
RO:
Yeah, yeah. As far as camp and then we left for Amache and Colorado in September and
immediately when we got there, we had to settle and make some furniture and things like
that but then we had so many job offers to go to so. I went to work on farm in Rocky
Ford which is maybe less than a hundred miles away and we harvested sugar beets and
worked on this farm until we finished that job. And it was—I think that was good
experience too because we learned about people in Rocky Ford, you know, and there was
a little Japanese community there, too. I think I went to church there. But, so and then
the job was done naturally so then I came back, but there were about five or six of us
working together there.
MK:
It says how do you feel about being put into camp because of your Japanese ancestry?
RO:
Oh yeah, that’s a question. Well it’s something like we say in Japanese, you can’t help it.
MK:
Yeah.
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RO:
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And because of the circumstances yeah and racial and nationality, I felt oh we can’t help
it so I would rather do that than fight the Americans here.
MK:
Yeah, yeah.
RO:
You know and I guess we would have suffered less abuse.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
Because I can remember my mother telling me that during the First World War, the
German people that she was friends with.
MK:
Friends with?
RO:
Had a very hard time. They were really prejudiced, people prejudiced against them and
gave them a bad time. So I felt gee, is that going to happen to us? And so I—I didn’t
think just that we couldn’t stay and do our thing. But, camp life—well it was a necessity
but I didn’t think it was—it kept us away from other harm.
MK:
When you left camp you went to farming then?
RO:
Well yeah, leaving camp was a real (inaudible) and when they opened it up in the spring
time of 1943, I guess it was, the opportunities were so much that people were recruiting
us out of camp and things we could go in so I was and in college, too I studied in
agriculture and got my basic things that I learned there. So I said gee I am going to go to
one of the best farming areas in the United States. And I didn’t know that corn and stuff
but anyway I was Midwestern so I went to Iowa to farm, to learn to—to work on a farm
and I stayed with a family, I was single and they fed me and gave me a room and took me
to town once in a while.
MK:
Well that was nice.
19
RO:
OHKI
But anyway I went to work on his farm which was cattle and we had some pigs and we
had lots of corn. And so we fed the pigs and a couple of cows but they were beef cattle.
MK:
They are not so hard.
RO:
So it wasn’t difficult as milking so many.
MK:
So in the meantime, where was your mother? Was she in camp then?
RO:
Yes, my mother never left camp and my sister stayed with her.
MK:
Oh Annie huh?
RO:
And I know my two brothers left with the army right away and then my other brother
stayed for a little while but he left and went to work I think in Chicago. So—
MK:
Well Annie was still in high school then?
RO:
Yes. She graduated.
MK:
She was like my sister Ruth.
RO:
Yeah, she graduated in Amache.
MK:
She was with her mother then?
RO:
Yeah and are we talking about relocation now yeah. Any questions?
MK:
Resettlement it says.
RO:
Oh.
MK:
When did you leave camp?
RO:
I left camp well. I left camp with some of my friends like Fred Kishi and Tach, no it
wasn’t Tach, my cousin Elsa and another girl. I can’t think of her name now. So I rode
the train with them and I got off in Kansas City and they continued on to their destination
back east.
MK:
Oh, uh-huh. And that was kind of sad, huh?
20
OHKI
RO:
Yeah.
MK:
You had to go by yourself.
RO:
I had to go by myself to there but we were rode across Kansas in the train together and of
course, that was good. And then Fred went to Maryland to college, University of
Maryland. Elsa and her friend went to Michigan. I think it was Detroit and so we
departed at a certain point and I went north into Iowa and of course, in Iowa the hostel
there was waiting for us there. We had a friends church, friends, actually they are
Quakers. They befriended us and they had a hostel in Des Moines.
MK:
Like in Detroit, we were in Tanabe. Do you remember him?
RO:
Yes.
MK:
He had a little hostel and we stayed there until we got into our jobs.
RO:
Well those were helpful for our settlement and they also provided—we were always
welcome to come back and so on weekends many times I was able to be there with some
of the other Nisei folks in Des Moines.
MK:
Since you were going to a farm, you didn’t have any trouble getting a job then?
RO:
No, we, this was already selected.
MK:
Oh I see.
RO:
We had correspondence. I was in fact they came to the station and got me.
MK:
Oh I see.
RO:
And so first thing we did is; we went to the hostel. They knew that the hostel was—you
see the hostel I think they were able to recruit us, too.
MK:
Oh, recruit you.
21
RO:
OHKI
Apparently, so they were kind of connected with that somehow and I met the director
and—
MK:
Really, so they really didn’t have any discrimination then, huh? They were all prepared
for most of us.
RO:
They were—they were very much so and I found the Iowans didn’t have any inkling of
who we are but they also didn’t have much prejudice either. They didn’t have any
prejudice to speak of. I—so I enjoyed the, the, you know.
MK:
I guess it’s the way that Japanese or Nisei are, that it is appealing to them. You know,
you are not too over bearing and always kind of, you know, quiet and not too—
RO:
Well, you know, we grew up knowing our situation, I guess, and we had to adjust to
things and I think we adjusted to the fact that you didn’t want to get anybody mad at you.
So, I think we had some training in that. And it wasn’t too easy, it wasn’t too hard. I
wasn’t too afraid of people so I was happy to be there alone more or less even.
MK:
Now you weren’t treated roughly or discriminated or anything or racial prejudice.
RO:
No.
MK:
That is amazing.
RO:
No, there was only one incident I could talk about but in Iowa, I went to work on this
farm and it wasn’t long before I knew this little town called Cummings was a Catholic
town. So I wasn’t a Catholic so I knew so kind of just a little further distance but it was a
neighboring town I was able to go to the---in a little while I was at the church there, a
community church and they welcomed me like anybody else.
MK:
They must have prepared their constituents about this because I never felt discriminated
against either, never had any problems.
22
RO:
OHKI
They were curious about us and about our promiscuousness or whatever because they
didn’t want us to bother their girls or sisters, I guess, because I went to camp one summer
camp and the first question they asked was that, about that.
MK:
How did they put it?
RO:
Well he said are you—have you—what is that word? Scattered any seeds? I didn’t know
what that meant really. So I said, no I don’t think I’ve done that.
MK:
You’ve planted alfalfa.
RO:
Yeah, right I’ve scattered seeds that way. But—
MK:
That is interesting.
RO:
That was very—he was to the point. He wanted to know my character.
MK:
My goodness.
RO:
I said, okay and after that I was okay. You know.
MK:
Isn’t that funny. I wonder if they thought that all Japanese were that way?
RO:
No, he wanted to make sure that I wasn’t one of those guys that—
MK:
Go after the girls.
RO:
Yeah, and were promiscuous.
MK:
Promiscuous yeah. Did he have daughters?
RO:
I don’t know. But this was a camp, a youth camp and I was older than most of them.
MK:
Oh okay.
RO:
I was already twenty-two, twenty-three and most of them were, you know, high school
age.
MK:
That is interesting. I’m glad I asked you. It would be very interesting about that.
RO:
So anyway, people adopted me there. I have very happy about that.
23
OHKI
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
Okay, the only experience about prejudices, one day a lady asked me—she saw me on
this bus and what type of bus they had in Des Moines and before I got off, she said
something about, are you from Japan? And questions like that you know and of course I
spoke English just like she did and I said, “No, I was born and raised here and I’m a
citizen of this country and all that.” And she was trying to question my loyalty, I think
but I told her that my brothers were serving in Italy and one of them had just died or was
killed in action there so our family is part of this citizenry and part of the people here.
And so we are, you know, and so she didn’t say anything actually after that. But I’m glad
somebody asked me something like that because I wasn’t able to say anything else like
that to anybody.
MK:
Yeah once you say it you have it exactly you know what you are going to do and say if
somebody else asks you.
RO:
Well, yeah but sometimes it was hard to put the question and I think the church people
also wanted to—they must have tested me a little bit about and I accepted things in their
church and I think I even—when they had a big gathering where they asked if you were
children of God and you wanted to be part of it and you know something, I had never
been in my life but I did go with the others and said, “Yes, I am.”
MK:
Child of God?
RO:
Yeah, I am a believer in Christ and all that stuff, you know. They weren’t very
fundamental but yet they had this occasionally, they did this.
MK:
Hmm, let’s see. You weren’t a student huh? It says how were you treated by other
students?
24
RO:
OHKI
Well you mean. That is maybe before the war. But I had, you know, Caucasian friends
in college. They became my closest friends.
MK:
Oh, this is resettlement so.
RO:
Oh this is resettlement but I mean going back a little ways I remember that. They were
my buddies.
MK:
Yeah, do you get to see them a lot now?
RO:
No, one of them died in the fifties and the other one I saw in the fifties, but I haven’t seen
them since though.
MK:
Who are these? Do we know them?
RO:
Well he’s Italian.
MK:
Oh okay.
RO:
He’s Italian too you know and the United States was in the war against them and I didn’t
get to talk to him about that. He was selling Real Estate in Modesto.
MK:
Oh.
RO:
I need to talk to him and it is unfortunate that our friend died. We played tennis together
that is how we knew each other. But, you know I don’t think I felt much prejudice. The
students were –I think the students our age were friendly, especially in this valley.
MK:
Yeah, yeah.
RO:
In the cities maybe not, but here.
MK:
Yeah, all the friends that we had you know they never did get mad or dislike us because
we were Japanese.
RO:
I don’t think so.
MK:
Yeah.
25
RO:
OHKI
So we grew up in a very congenial place and I think it showed that we didn’t have those
kinds of fears so much.
MK:
I would say. Compared to what you hear you know it was pretty nice like my major
teacher, my major in Cal she sent me a book that she wrote you know, afterwards and she
was so nice and I guess she is gone now.
RO:
Yeah, we do remember our teachers after we came back.
MK:
But she didn’t say much about you know the government and denounced the government
for doing such a thing and she was always good to me and gave me her book, you know.
Let’s see.
RO:
Well yeah.
MK:
You told me why you went to different places. In terms of your children, were they part
of extended family? No, you don’t need to answer that. Japanese community, they
were?
RO:
Kids, oh yeah. But even before I met—in Iowa I was—I should talk a little bit about
what happened there for history’s sake. You know my boss, he was kind of a gentle
farmer so he expected me to do the tractor work and in Iowa, that was what it was. You
didn’t do much hand work fortunately and that kind of thought that was better than truck
farming or so. So he kind of used me to do, till the soil and this and that. And the first
year that I did that, but in the harvesting of the first crop when I was there in September
or so, we were harvesting corn for other farmers because he had a corn picker. A corn
picker and there weren’t that many and they were short so they needed a corn picker.
Well, we went from farm to farm or a few of them and finally came to a farm of an old
couple that was leasing the ground to one of the neighbors. And they wanted to push the
26
OHKI
lease because I don’t know what—I guess they knew another person that wanted to quit
the farm or something and they came and asked me about it, “Do you want to farm here?”
And I said gee that is a strange question or a good question. And I said, “Yeah, I’ll talk it
over with my boss and we’ll see what we can do.” So together we decided to take on
another hundred and sixty acres of—
MK:
With your boss?
RO:
With my boss and we were partners in that operation. So to do that, you know, I had to
buy a tractor and you know plow and something else, I think, three items I think it was.
So, anyway we had to—we decided okay it’s a good farm and nice and fairly flat and a
good crop so we said okay. I said you know I think we can manage it, he and I, and he
had something in town that he had to go to pretty often so I didn’t see him that much.
But the tractor was not too hard. So I bought this tractor from one of the neighbors,
somebody there had one for sale and but I asked, I got, I asked our manager here in
Livingston to send me eleven hundred dollars I think it was for this tractor and equipment
and I needed to buy a car so anyway I asked for these items you know, and he said okay,
you got enough money but don’t ask for any more. So, anyway I was able to buy this
tractor and we farmed together for three seasons. And so, we split (inaudible) the profits
and I paid my expenses, whatever and, you know, and I came back—I came back after
the crop was harvested so he sent me some more money for me to use over here which I
thought but anyway, that was successful and I appreciated that. It was good experience
in farming. And so relocation to me and the way Nisei got around after we left
California, was something that I think everybody says this, something we never would
have done if we stayed here. And this way, yeah.
27
MK:
OHKI
Yeah, like I never would have the experience of running a nursery school and then Butch
went to work with an Orthodontist and so he knew a lot about that, too.
RO:
Isn’t that interesting? And so I had—I really don’t have much animosity against them.
MK:
That’s right.
RO:
Yeah, we lost profits but that is money only.
MK:
Yeah and you had your farm.
RO:
And we had the farm when we came back and were able to continue on so life turned out
so different than what we thought when we were kids. And I never forget how I
appreciate during relocation what our boys did in the military.
MK:
Yeah overseas.
RO:
Overseas because that was in the news and even coming back to California, this was
something later but I knew we did our part you know.
MK:
Yeah, that was the best thing to happen to have the Japanese soldiers together because
that seemed to show off the courage and things they did. If they were scattered among all
the other kinds of people, you wouldn’t have noticed you know the group that worked so
well during the war so.
RO:
Well—
MK:
It was funny thing to do to put all the Japanese together but maybe it was good, too.
RO:
Well that is the good part of it, we had some hardships there but it wasn’t all that bad.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
And yet, yeah, I don’t know who’s wisdom that was.
MK:
Well I kind of think it was people that kind of doubted putting them together or
something. I don’t know.
28
RO:
OHKI
But I, you know, of course, I give someone like Masaoka a lot of credit as a JACL—he
was a director, national director of helping us through our ordeal. And there were so
many people against him on the other hand I don’t know if our Sanseis and the future
generation could appreciate this but it took somebody to guide the whole herd. I really
appreciate that.
MK:
Well that was very interesting. Thank you Robert. I don’t think I need to—do I need to
ask you anymore?
RO:
Well there are some things about you know afterwards but the relocation was something
else and you know coming back to Livingston was another thing. I told my mother that
gee I would just as soon stay in Iowa. I got some things back in Iowa and yeah I said I
know I’m the oldest and I’m expected to come back so I’ll do that. So—
MK:
Well you know it would have been hard for Isseis in different.
RO:
Yeah, they still had to finish their life and we have they have some family responsibilities
so I felt this was something but it was okay for me to come back and a little more
profitable for me maybe. So, I had to leave Iowa again another place that I sort of liked
and start over here. But starting over, it was a challenge, and I think opportunities
opened up here and you know, our community came back here and almost everybody got
their farms back.
MK:
That was really good.
RO:
And we farmed cooperatively and finally we all got together as one cooperative and after
that, we made pretty good strides in our business. We were able to you know enlarge our
businesses and really all the things I dreamed about came true. You know.
MK:
That’s good.
29
RO:
OHKI
It’s funny. I remember when we were in a Boy Scout meeting one time and our Boy
Scout leader Mr. Carpenter said, “You know in your lifetime maybe your gross income
for all that time might be somewhere around fifty thousand dollars.” I said, “Yeah maybe
that is right.” And I was only twelve or fourteen then and then, heck, came back and I
used to make that much money and I mean so I said, God. So a lot of dreams changed
and the post war for our good and—
MK:
Yeah, good things happen if you look for it there is something good out of it.
RO:
Yeah.
MK:
That is my philosophy.
RO:
If you look at it negatively.
MK:
Yeah, then it’s all bad.
RO:
I think we learned that like we said when we grew up here.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
So, we are positive about things. So anyway, so like I say many things that I thought I
dreamt about maybe but things came to reality and gee, how nice it was that we grew up
in this generation.
MK:
That’s right, yeah.
RO:
And we are different but then on the other hand, we became a, I don’t know, a group that
really I think we are professional people that went into big things. I think really proved
what we were made out of.
MK:
Yeah. Yeah, I remember.
RO:
Yeah.
30
MK:
OHKI
Like you know we used to hear that people from Cortez didn’t like the Livingston people
and stuff like that. And when I started to go around with Butch, well Butch was in the
hospital and they found a spot so he had to stay with the rest of us that were in camp and
he used to always be out there, he was—he was in the hospital a while too but he got out
and we used to sit in the sun or squat on the ground or sit on a box and got to know him
real well but when I was saying good-bye to him, he was still in the hospital with Butch
you know and he made me promise to marry him. So at least he liked me, I guess. You
know they used to think that Livingston girl. And I think they really had a doubt about
Livingston people because we were so much more advanced socially.
RO:
Some ways socially. I don’t know.
MK:
But anyway.
RO:
Well.
MK:
Funny experience but I’ll never forget that time, promise me that you are going to marry
Butch, okay, okay.
RO:
Well that happened early for you. That was nice.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
And so see I didn’t and like I said I had to make a decision and that was kind of hard.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
You know and I think life did turn around for Nisei in post-war. I think the pioneers
never could have dreamt that things like this could change so much.
MK:
That’s right.
RO:
So we developed with all our attributes and were able to do stuff. You know I was in
JACL cabinet for a number of years and I used to go to meetings and I know that these
31
OHKI
guys are professionals over there, you know. My God, they had responsible jobs and you
know I always thought it wouldn’t happen unless we proved ourselves. And we proved it
in many ways and we left when relocation started and it changed our prospective about
what life was about and we just developed and blossomed out. I felt that.
MK:
We learned a lot by being put in a new situation and having to make a go of it.
RO:
There you go. The challenge was there and the challenge to come back and restart but
you know I never thought that I’d be worth much or anything.
MK:
Me too.
RO:
But I’m still not that rich but it’s enough to sustain us and I really am happy that we were
able to come back.
MK:
Yeah, when we were in Detroit what was it, three years ago I think and we went to the
place where I used to work you know and I didn’t know anybody there anymore, but I
talked to the director and said I was here and everything and she was so happy you know.
Yeah, and I don’t think any of the sisters knew we were there because it has been years
now.
RO:
Yeah, so you know I think in my case I started going outside of the community. Well I
had church conference responsibilities. And so I used to go to the annual conferences
and then you know in the late fifties we started the Lion’s Club. And you know our
friendship enlarged after that.
MK:
Yeah, that is right.
RO:
And with that I knew so many more people.
MK:
Keep talking?
32
RO:
OHKI
Well I don’t know how much time we’ve got. So, you know I was able to do other things
and I was fortunate to get on other boards. And they were all those organizations that
served the community and helped other people prosper or whatever. And be a school
trustee and you know that they let Nisei do that in Livingston. And they were an
influence in our educational system here. You know like Buddy Iwata you know, he was
the trustee of the first school and he started the college and he wanted to retire so he
asked for somebody to help and so I said oh I’ll help you. And so we were able to
contribute and so you know we were able to travel, Martha. We have been with our class
on travel trips and you know those things really added to our life. And there are a lot of
fulfilling experiences. We all had so to this day I am happy like you said.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
And like my family you know we had five children and three girls and two boys. The
girls left home early, after high school they wanted to be more independent. Boys stuck
around and they are still here but they are farming our properties that we wanted to retire
so, somewhat so we left them do the farming.
MK:
Yeah.
RO:
And they are getting along okay I think although not as good as I’d like them to but they
are getting along good I guess.
MK:
Oh yeah, they will make it. All the kids are. They have good common sense and they do
what they like and what they want to.
RO:
Yeah.
MK:
You know they are not unhappy or anything.
33
RO:
OHKI
And I’m happy. Like Father’s Day the girls send me their little notes and tears come to
your eyes and they say, “Gee, you are the best father I could have had.” You know or
something like that. My God, how can that be, but it is possible. And they appreciate us.
The boys don’t seem to say those kinds of things.
MK:
Yeah, yeah uh huh.
RO:
But lately though we get along much better.
MK:
That’s good.
RO:
Trust each other more and stuff like that.
MK:
Well when they get to a certain age, they get pretty sensible. Judy is probably the best
mother of the two of them. Of course she has several different fathers maybe but you
know she is a good mother and the kids are fine and so they go through their mistakes but
they end up okay.
RO:
Yeah, it seemed like they had to learn through mistakes and so gee, we just have to say
okay, let them learn. But it hurts the parents to watch this go on. But so we had one
divorce in Michael’s case and yeah. But it’s, but he has custody so he has responsibility
for his family. He takes care of them.
MK:
Yeah, those kids are so good though, so cute and smart and everything else.
RO:
Well I don’t know. Did we cover the subjects Martha?
MK:
Yeah, I think so. You could look at this and see. Yeah, I don’t know you did it quite
thoroughly. I didn’t do it as much but that’s okay.
RO:
Well coming back to my uncles were farming here as partners you might say. But you
know and maybe I didn’t go through enough about him but so my father wasn’t into the
picture but shortly after he came, within ten years they were having a hard time, really
34
OHKI
hard time. So and they, the corporation they had to sell, not sell I think actually the banks
had to take over. But, but he survived on his own and he died but he left the place for us
so. And it was up to us to do the rest which I guess we managed some way.
MK:
How old were you when your father--?
RO:
I was eleven.
MK:
Oh is that right.
RO:
And I was the oldest so.
MK:
Yeah, I know it. So your mother sure did a good job. I have to tell you this but you don’t
have to put it on, but one time Annie was over here and playing with my sister. They
were good friends you know. And I think we still had the shack and things and she, my
sister said that Ruth said later that Annie told me that I don’t have manners because we
don’t have a mother. And I think Annie was kind of a good, good girl. And everything
was—
RO:
She didn’t have a father so what you know. She didn’t have a father though.
MK:
Yeah, but that’s what Annie said.
RO:
You didn’t have a mother’s, a lady’s point of view in your life.
MK:
Yeah. But you don’t have manners. My mother said that you don’t have manners
because you don’t have a mother. That made me so mad.
RO:
(laughing)
MK:
But I think Ruth appreciates me quite a bit because after all, I was kind of her mother
substitute so. And she was I don’t know how old was she when our mother died?
Her
mother died? I think she was in kindergarten or something so she has been motherless
for a long time. Wait a minute. Yeah, she was quite a bit younger than I am but anyway.
35
RO:
OHKI
Well anyway. You know even post-war with travels we were certainly fortunate to go
and be with our cousins that we never saw before and I met—and I went to see one of my
aunts and she died shortly after that but she was the wife of my mother’s, one of her
favorite brothers living in Japan.
MK:
Oh I see.
RO:
So she married into the family but he was an architect in Japan and he built buildings in
Komoto as an architect.
MK:
So the boys were just three boys I had one in Mexico an uncle and one and my uncle and
my father so there were only three of them. And—I think we had aunts but I don’t know
who they are.
RO:
Yeah, and they, one cousin in Komoto doesn’t speak English so it was difficult-well I
was able to speak Japanese to him and then I met his sister too and that was a bonus to
me because I didn’t even know that she was around.
MK:
Oh.
RO:
And that was real nice.
MK:
How long ago was it, you were in Japan?
RO:
What?
MK:
How long ago did you go?
RO:
Well the first time I met him was 1969.
MK:
Oh I see. Boy that is forty years ago.
RO:
Yeah.
MK:
I mean almost.
36
RO:
OHKI
I went on a tour then. So, and then I stayed and visited their home the first time I was
there and visited my aunt and that was very nice. So we had ties with cousins there and I
thought how nice but I haven’t met all of my father’s side because I only met them since
about 1995. But I hope we get to go back and see them, too.
MK:
Well my sister stayed in Japan until she was about sixteen so, my older sister so she was
raised by her cousin’s family I guess. So anyway, so you know but she doesn’t—I guess
she writes to them all the time. That is my oldest sister Mimio.
RO:
Well the Japanese did do well in Livingston. Even the Issei folks owned quite a bit of
property here. In fact, your father was doing what they had now, a hundred and sixty
acres? Well my uncles well there were three of them and my father they owned well into
the two hundreds. I don’t know what it was. And I guess they kind of went overboard a
little so when hard times came up, I guess they couldn’t make it, cash flow and pay off,
whatever they had to do.
MK:
Yeah, and so we lost the other side but we had this forty acres thing so.
RO:
Yeah right and so my uncles, they lost all the property so my father started on his own
which was fortunate. Well, we are going to conclude that. Have our cameraman shut it
off.
MK:
Honey, can you turn.
RO:
Well Martha I can go back and push the button.
MK:
Oh. Well what do we say? Just say.
RO:
This terminates our—
MK:
This terminates our discussion.
RO:
Thank you.
37
OHKI