Tom Thao interview
Item
Title
Tom Thao interview
Creator
Thao, Tom
Banh, Jenny
Relation
Central Valley Southeast Asian Successful Voices
Coverage
Fresno, California
Date
2017
Rights
Copyright has been transferred to Fresno State
Identifier
SCMS_casv_00026
extracted text
>> Hello. Welcome. Thank you for agreeing to be interviewed for the Successful Southeast Asian Archive. Can you say
your name and spell it?
>> Yes. My name is Tom -- T-O-M. Last name is Thao, T-H-A-O.
>> Can you give me verbal permission to interview you and to deposit your successful Southeast Asian interview in our
Successful Southeast Asian Archive in Fresno State in situ if needed for academic purposes?
>> Yes, I do. I do approve to be interviewed and to be part of this project.
>> Great. Thank you so much. The students are very grateful to you as well as I for giving us your great advice. Okay, if
you can say your name and spell it.
>> My name is Tom Thao. T-O-M and T-H-A-O.
>> Great. What is your gender?
>> I'm male.
>> What is -- and don't tell me the date, but just tell me the year. What is the year of your birth?
>> The year of my birth is 1979.
>> Okay. Excellent. What is your ethnic group and where were you born?
>> My ethnic group is [inaudible]. I was born in Laos.
>> Excellent. What was your undergraduate major?
>> My undergraduate major is liberal studies.
>> And where did you get your Bachelor's degree at?
>> At CSU Fresno, Fresno State.
>> Great. What is your Mom and Father's highest education?
>> Honestly, I don't believe they have any education. My Mom, she never had the chance to attend any schooling back
in Laos, although my Dad when he was in the -- when the war started in Laos, he had some chance to go through some
education in the military. So that was it.
>> Okay. Looking back at the family that you grew up with, what -- how many brothers and sisters did you have?
>> I have -- I'm the youngest one. So I have -- yeah. I have two -- my family is a little complicated. I do have more like
stepbrother and half brothers. All of them about -- I have about four -- three half brothers and sisters about three half
sisters, too.
>> Oh, wow. Okay. And what was your GPA in college?
>> My GPA? Undergrad or in grad?
>> Do you have a graduate degree?
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>> I do.
>> Oh, great. In what?
>> In education. So it's multilingual, multicultural education.
>> Oh excellent. Students want to know so anything you want to volunteer.
>> Okay. Undergrad, my GPA was roughly about average [inaudible] was 2.75. And then my graduate degree is 3.8.
>> Oh, excellent. What high school did you go to and was your high school public or private?
>> My high school is public high school. The school is McClain High School in Fresno [inaudible].
>> Where's McClain High School?
>> McClain High School is on Cedar and Clinton Avenue.
>> Oh, interesting. What was the racial and ethnic demographics of your high school?
>> I believe it was primarily [inaudible] predominantly Hispanic and then Asian at the time [inaudible]. I'll say about 15
percent of the student population there and then African American students [inaudible] are like [inaudible].
>> Interesting. Why do [inaudible] go to college? Why or why not?
>> Why do I want to go to college? Wow. I think that's something that when I was younger I think my parents always
mentioned or encouraged me to get an education. I think that was something that when I was younger I didn't know
much about but every day my Mom will say you need to continue to go to school or school [inaudible]. If you don't
want to do any hard labor or hard work, education will be the key to open many opportunities and doors for you. So you
don't end up working a farm or working in jobs that require a lot of physical work.
>> So your Mom told you that?
>> Yes.
>> Wow, interesting. What about your father? Did he say anything?
>> He did. At the time I didn't live with my father, but anytime we had the opportunity or the chance, he will tell me
about education as well. So it was more like encouragement and motivating me to continue to do good. I think my
Mom, she's the one that really just taking care of me and pushing me and reminding me about school and education so
[inaudible]. Yeah.
>> Interesting. As the youngest, are you the first one to go to college or did your other siblings who are older, did they
go to college and graduate?
>> I am the first one in my family to go to college and graduate with a Bachelor degree and also with a Masters degree.
>> Goodness. Looking back, why do you think your other siblings -- you had a lot of siblings -- how come they didn't
go to college and graduate?
>> Most of them, they didn't have the opportunity to go to school because they were a lot older when we came to the
United States. So they didn't have the chance to go to school. They were married and have kids [inaudible] before we
came over. When they got here, it was family, kids and job and so they really didn't have the chance to go to school. It
was more like they had to sacrifice the family for school if they really have to go to school.
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>> So did they ->> Between family and work and -- yeah.
>> Did they all push you then? Did all the siblings push you to go to college? Your graduation must have been a big
party.
>> They -- sometimes they do, a lot of times they do remind me especially the brother I live with or at the time when I
was younger, he was the one that took care of me along with my Mom. He also reminded me -- he also pushed me to do
good as well. A lot of time he would tell me stories about schools in Laos when he was going through school in Laos
and compare his education back in Laos to the states, and that actually now he's painting a picture where opportunities
here are a lot better than back in Laos. So [inaudible].
>> What story did he specifically say?
>> Huh?
>> What -- how was it different in Laos? How is it different here?
>> Oh, one of the stories I recall he was telling me about back in Laos he was going through school. He didn't have a lot
of -- well [inaudible] much further away. They have to walk about half a day to get to school and when they do go, they
have to stay there for the -- so it was not like here in the states where you can walk to school. It takes us five minutes to
walk to school and come back. And then we have food at home ready and back in Laos, sometimes you have to scamper
for food. They had to find -- they have to go out and find food for dinner and stuff like that. So he was telling me these
stories and makes me realize now that schools here [inaudible] especially public education [inaudible]. You really take
advantage of [inaudible].
>> That's an excellent example. Thank you. What about your teachers? Do you think your teachers, do they have high
expectations of you?
>> I'd say that in -- when I was a lot younger especially in elementary school I think that they do have higher
expectation of me, but at the time I think I was too -- I didn't realize it at the time because I didn't speak English at all
when I came. So I didn't know that they were expecting me to do well, but I did a lot of time. They do push me to
continue to do my best to learn, and I think that's one of the ways that they expect me to do well -- have high
expectation for me. But in high school, yeah. I remember some of the -- especially one of the biology teachers in my
sophomore year, she really pushes me to do good in the class. In the beginning, I really didn't do good. I think it was the
lack of knowledge or not understanding the whole biology concept. And so she really pushed me. She teaches me
different ways how I can study for the test and all of that and towards the end, I was able to do good and improve my
grades and so I really think that that teacher makes a big difference in my -- I would say my educational [inaudible] by
not only expecting me to do good but also providing me different techniques on how to do good in school.
>> Okay, great. What about your co-ethnics? Did they have high expectations of the southeast Asians?
>> [Inaudible] I think so. We do have some friends who are I would say in high school I do have a [inaudible] friend, a
Caucasian friend a lot of times we challenge each other in terms of what can we do to better ourselves, and a lot of times
he also provides a lot of support and also encourages us to continue to do good. So I think that's something that I do see
that the -- if you become good friends with them, they will expect you to do good or at least to do better than them. At
least, that's how I feel.
>> Great. Do you remember any notable media depictions of your ethnic group?
>> Can you repeat that again?
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>> Do you remember growing up do you remember any media depictions of your ethnic group such as in news or
movies or social media?
>> I recall in high school most of the time [inaudible] depiction of my ethnic group [inaudible]. Not so much about
academic success or success in career wise, but [inaudible] because at the time when I was growing up, it was in the mid
90's, in the 1990's and during that time in Fresno there were a lot of gang issues and a lot of Asian gangs.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Yeah. It was a lot of Asian gangs and a lot of issues around gangs. So that was -- whenever we see an Asian person
[inaudible] on t.v., it's usually violence, related to gangs or [inaudible] what not. Yeah.
>> Do you think that this hampered your academic success or had no effect on you?
>> I think that it pushes me to be a better person. So in a way, it kind of -- I don't want to say it hampers, although it
does portray negative connotation in mainstream community. But at the same time what I do with that is I utilize that as
a way to make myself a better person so that I can continue to do good and stay away from any gang related issue or
other identified gang members that [inaudible] individuals who might be gang and stay away from them because I don't
want to be associated with any of that. That's how I kind of see it.
>> Oh, okay wow. Interesting. So you kind of protect yourself academically. Thinking back at your high school, do you
think your high school academically prepared you for college?
>> I [inaudible] I don't think they are doing that great in terms of academically preparing me for college. I think that
they could do better [inaudible].
>> Okay, in what way?
>> So compare and contrast because when I went to college, I think I had a lot of -- I struggled a lot with academic
[inaudible] in terms of doing research paper and all of that and as far as understanding or finding a way to [inaudible]
not so much -- well I think just the fact that they're not pushing us or they're not providing academic training that will
[inaudible] college because I think a lot of times we [inaudible] high school and thought that should be good enough for
college, but [inaudible] all those [inaudible] and all those materials and classes in college are totally different than high
school. A lot of times when we do research in high school, we are not expected to provide resource or let's say source
and we're not being expected -- we're not expected to utilize or go out and do extensive research on a certain topic that
we wanted to talk about. [Inaudible] when I went into college, that is something that I struggle a lot because I didn't
know how to do research then to help with my research paper and so I think that giving classes, providing classes for
students to become more literate in not only academic but I will say time management, resource, campus resource, that
sort of thing. I think that [inaudible] to us more it will be very helpful at the time as well.
>> Great. Thinking back on your college career, you said that you weren't academically prepared for high school. Do
you think if you had any barriers at all in college in terms of graduation such as cultural or educational? You talked
about educational. Financial, health, gender. For example, do you think that it'd be easier if you were a woman going
through college, a [inaudible] woman or no effect?
>> I think in regards to gender, I don't see as a barrier for me, but I think what seems to be the barrier for me is the
cultural effect. A lot of times I think that when you become a young adult you have a lot of expectations. And at the
time, when I did my first year in college, I had to take care of my Mom. At the time, she was about 60 years old and so
she didn't speak any English. She don't know how to drive. It's really much up to me to provide that care for her. So
[inaudible] responsibility and at the same time the responsibility of financial. I do receive financial aid, but that was
enough to cover the school expense and all of that. I had to find a part-time job and so it really created a challenge for
me to manage my time which [inaudible] time management were to be a subject that we learn in high school or
introduce in high school, I think it will have helped me a lot, but that's time management, responsibility and [inaudible]
our culture usually prepares [inaudible].
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>> Oh.
>> I have that responsibility and sometimes it's hard to stay late at school to really study because they'll always being
say, where you at? I mean, it's 10 o'clock. You should be home. And so I think even though being a boy, a man at the
time of school, college I still have the responsibility. So it's still a challenge as relates to culture.
>> That's a good point. Thank you. That's a lot of parent care. Did you have to take care of kids at all? You talked about
working was a barrier, financial taking care of your parents. What about children? Did you have to take care of children
or grandparents?
>> I don't have any grandparents, but my sophomore year I got married, and my wife and I we had our first born, our
first son in my sophomore year in college, and yeah.
>> Wow.
>> That is a -- that's another responsibility, talking about responsibility. Now I have a family, a family that I have to
make sure that I take care of them, my son, my wife and my Mom. So it's just -- instead of releasing that responsibility, I
created more of a challenge for me in regards to responsibility.
>> So we have a lot of parents at Fresno State. How did you do it? How did you take care of all these people?
>> I think when my wife and I we got married, both of us were -- she's the oldest one and I'm the youngest one. In her
family, she's the oldest one, and in my family I'm the youngest one. So I think how I was able to do it is that we
motivate each other. We promote, we push each other. I think that's what really got me to stay in school and do good in
school because at the time I didn't have kids but I think my Mom when we have our son, she wanted to help me and my
wife [inaudible] our son, our first child. We were attending school and work. So I mean, really [inaudible] and while I'm
at school and working, she's doing that.
>> Wow. Thinking back, do you think you had any other barriers that I didn't ask you about?
>> Any other barriers? Let's see. I -- I will say that it will be language because although at the time when I was going
through high school in my first two or three years of college, I really struggled to [inaudible] I would say about
[inaudible]. Being outspoken, [inaudible] that is really -- I would say that is a challenge for me or barrier for me because
it really limits what I can do for myself. At the same time, it limits what I could do to help me be more successful. That's
how I see, that's something I wish I could do something better, if I could improve, that would be an area that I wanted to
improve on.
>> Did you ask for help? Did you go to office hours?
>> Honestly, sometimes I did. But I think that it's also part of the culture aspect that it's like you feel ashamed to go ask
for help, ask something that [inaudible] at the time. I don't know why I felt like that but I was struggling like that at the
time when I was going to college and sometimes I do go in there and ask for help and sometimes when I go in there, I
ask one or two questions, that's all.
>> Okay.
>> So yeah. That's one of the -- I would say one of the challenges that I wish I could ->> Were you mentored at all in college?
>> Mentored? No.
>> Okay. So we're going to move onto the last parts of -- last five questions is [inaudible]. So let's talk about Mr. Tom.
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Have you had a lot of barriers? You talked about -- you said being the youngest son, financial, having a son, family, all
these six barriers, but you are very successful. You have a B.A. and M.A. with all those barriers. Why do you think your
personality your, Mr. Tom, made it when so many other people didn't make it? So where are your -- let's talk about your
personality. Why were you able to make it, like achieve all this high success?
>> I think it goes back down to determination and goals. I mean, I could be very good -- I would say I could be very
good with having good skill sets in let's say academically. I could be good at reading, writing, math all of that, but if I
do not have the determination for the goals to achieve something, to achieve that academic goals that I have, I will not
be able to do it and that's how I think -- although I know that I lack certain skills [inaudible] aspects, my academic
career, I still believe that I can do it and I persevered through a lot of -- the challenge and a lot of the struggles I have.
And I think that that's really what got me to where I am today. It's really [inaudible] and also the perseverance because a
lot of times you're going to have to overcome a lot of struggles, a lot of barriers and challenge [inaudible] such as what I
mentioned earlier that you will have responsibility, cultural barriers, language barriers or just sometimes it would be just
situations that just affects you in your academic [inaudible] and you're going to have to be able to persevere through that
because of your determination.
>> Okay.
>> That was it.
>> So Tom, is this your personality you've always had since third grade?
>> I really think that I didn't know I had that personality until I was in high school. And so I think it was a lot of -- most
of the time it was reflecting back to the life that I have where I [inaudible] refugee camps where we didn't have anything
at all when we were in the refugee camp. Not the food, not the clothes, not the freedom. So when I got here, I was going
to school but at the same time I didn't know that was [inaudible], but I do feel that I do believe that all of those struggles
and all of those hardships that I lived through allows me to have this personality I think. So yeah, I [inaudible] it's a
challenge [inaudible] I lived through it and so I look back and sometimes I look at my nieces and nephews and those
guys were born here and sometimes they -- I see that they may not have the determination or the [inaudible] I think they
do, but they don't have the hardships.
>> Right. So thinking back, you are extremely successful and particularly for a first generation or 1.5. What do -- can
you think back, you talked about your Mom helped you and encouraged you. You talked about how your wife helped
you and then your brother helped you. Can you think of anything else that was a bridge that helped you graduate college
such as were you a dancer, friend, community, church, religion? Think of now all the things that you think helped you
do well and graduate in college. What were those things?
>> Yeah, [inaudible] I do have a group of friends that we graduated the same year and we kind of pushed each other.
The other one that I see -- I [inaudible] him a lot through my high school years because they're the [inaudible] that were
born here and I find myself to be the only one who was born abroad and lived in refugee camps [inaudible] here. And so
[inaudible] with them and so I think that having them as friends and having them there allows me to leverage [inaudible]
through school. And I think that we helped each other anytime when I have school work or homework, what I will do is
I'll go and ask them for help. Not so much would they tutor me, but ask them to kind of [inaudible] or give me ideas.
Some of those things, and we pushed each other and we went into college. I didn't know what I was studying. I didn't
really have a career choice at the time I was -- I got into college, but it was those friends like hey, we're going to go to
college, okay? Let's applied to this college. And so it was really also that kind of just in a way, kind of like peer pressure
that just okay. So my chance of going [inaudible]. So I didn't really think about oh man, I need to get a job. But I did. I
applied to college with my friends and we went to Fresno State, and then about -- when we find time to hang out, to
study together even though we have different classes, different majors. We kind of helped each other through college as
well.
>> So Mr. Tom -- go on.
>> Yeah.
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>> Mr. Tom, at the time did you know that you were a trailblazer at the time when you were going to college?
>> No. I did not know.
>> You must know now, right?
>> I hope I was. I hope I am because I think maybe for my -- in my family I might be the trailblazer in my family but
beyond my family, I don't know.
>> Any cousins in your generation? Not the nieces or nephews but any cousins go to college?
>> I do. I have one cousin who is about two years older than me. He went, and he [inaudible] in computer technician,
something like that. And so him and then two younger cousins who was born in Laos, and we grew up here . They also
have their B.A. degrees from Fresno State.
>> So do you think -- did you help them? Did they know about you? Did that affect them?
>> Yeah. We are actually very close. Growing up, we were real close. We visited each other a lot, and anytime we have
family traditions or family events, family functions, we see each other and when my two younger cousins who were
attending Fresno State, they actually came and stayed with me in my three bedroom apartment for about a year before
they moved out to live on their own.
>> Wow.
>> They were living -- at the time they [inaudible].
>> Oh.
>> They [inaudible]. They share the apartment and the rent with me and that -- I think that helps them to [inaudible]
financial support and allowed them to stay out, school, study for their [inaudible]. I think that's something that helps
them too.
>> So you mentored within your family a lot. Think about yourself. Do you think that your community helped you at all
or your religion helped you at all or did they have no effect?
>> I don't think my community helped me in any way other than I [inaudible] in my ethnic group, my community
[inaudible]. I think that helps me in that sense that I feel okay, [inaudible] my culture. Although [inaudible] sometimes
speaking [inaudible] speaking, I might not feel comfortable talking about certain aspects of my culture. In my culture,
the [inaudible]. It is my concern. I need to be part of it. So I think in that sense I [inaudible] but I think that in terms of
[inaudible] I really don't think my community has any influence on me or my cultural or religious beliefs.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah, I don't think it also affects me.
>> Okay. So the last questions are things -- you've gone through Fresno State. We have a retention issue particularly for
southeast Asians, particularly for males. Tell me if you want this or do you think this would be helpful for Fresno State
students. Do you want smaller classes?
>> I do.
>> Do you want more co-ethnic professors?
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>> Yes.
>> Do you want more co-ethnic classmates?
>> Yes.
>> Do you want more ethnic clubs?
>> Yes.
>> Do you want more college success workshops and what type of workshop do you want?
>> I think right now based on what I have seen at Fresno State and all the success workshops, I think they have a fairly
good amount so I would say that continue to do that and I think in terms of workshops, I would say maybe one of them
would be understanding the personal challenge.
>> Okay.
>> Maybe identify your own challenges and then maybe overcome it because a lot of times what I always say to some
of the younger folks that I come across is that yeah, we can say -- we can give you all the great ideas, all the [inaudible]
you can be successful but if you don't overcome the challenge that you have or the personal challenge that is holding
you back, you will not be able to apply the skills that we are telling you. I think that might be able to -- it might be
helpful and useful for some of the students.
>> Definitely, thank you. That's very important. I'll [inaudible] that. Thank you. Do you think there's anything I didn't
ask you about any successful bridges? If not, I'll go to the last question.
>> Successful bridges. I would say that you did ask about co-ethnic or [inaudible] and I think right now we do have
[inaudible] at Fresno State but not enough to where we could ask for help or not to the point where the professors, the
[inaudible] professors there could do or could make an impact, and I think it would be great to have more professors and
maybe develop some type of [inaudible] at Fresno State.
>> Develop a support group? Okay.
>> Yeah. I know the clubs and the fraternities, they're great. But some students like myself when I was going to college
I -- because of my responsibility and my family, I didn't have a chance to participate in clubs because I felt that if I
[inaudible], it would take too much time away from my family and making sure that I take care of my responsibilities at
home so I didn't participate in any clubs at all.
>> So Mr. Tom ->> So I think that by having ->> But having -- go on, sorry, having ->> Yeah and so by having support groups will allow other students who do have -- who have less amount of time to
participate in clubs, they can utilize the support group to help them [inaudible].
>> So Mr. Tom, thinking back at yourself, you had children in college. Would a success group -- how could we get you
to a success -- a support group if you have kids? Would it be online? Would it be more accessible to you?
>> Online class?
>> Online support group.
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>> Oh, online support group? I think that might help to a certain extent. I also think that maybe it will -- maybe meeting
the person [inaudible] when I need to talk to somebody, I think that I could talk to a person and set a time where it
allows me to go and see the person. I think that will also help as well.
>> Okay.
>> Yes, online would be good. Back then I think when I was growing through my Bachelor's, there was no online
support group or that sort of thing. So yeah, I think this should be good too, online support.
>> Okay, great. So my last question is advice to the third generation, fourth generation. And even now the present
second generation. For instance, if you were speaking to your nieces and nephews, what advice could you give them to
be as successful as you in academics to graduate? What advice can you give them?
>> I always say to my nieces and nephews to [inaudible] go to school. I think as much working experience as you can
related to your general studies. I know that looking back I think that what -- I wish I could do that because the
responsibility that I have at home I would like to [inaudible]. I was not able to go out there and be more involved in the
school campus or involved in activities that relate to my field of study, relates to my major. And so I lacked that skill
and that's what I also encourage them because the more involved you become, you also see individuals that are
successful in that career path that maybe you want to follow and so by [inaudible] individuals like that, it also allows
you to understand that you could do it and also allows you to build that network with that individual and if you need
help in something that relates to that career or that academic class that you wanted to do, you could have that person that
you could look up to, you could connect with. So by doing internship, getting involved in the community or school,
[inaudible] part of a club that's even better. If not, being involved, just participate in school activities that they might
have such as maybe the workshops. A lot of times the workshops allow the students to meet other students as well and
be outspoken. I will say that that's something that [inaudible] but I see a lot of the third and fourth generation, they're
more outspoken if they need something. So continue to be outspoken even though when you feel that you don't need
something or you feel like you understand something, just ask. And I learned the only answer you will get by asking is
no and if somebody says no to you, it's okay. Go the next person and ask. Maybe they'll be able to provide you with
information that you need [inaudible]. Besides that, I would say have determination, continue to find that determination
whatever that is [inaudible]. Find a reason to push yourself even though it may seem hard. It may seem hard. Find a
reason to go -- to keep on going. And so I think that determination, continue to have that. Persevere. A lot of times we
might have a lot of responsibility, a lot of situations happen all the time in our life and problems will always arise but
[inaudible] problems are only temporary and they will go away. But if you persevere through your problems and you
could overcome the problems, you will -- at the end, you will have a better I would say like the light at the tunnel will be
a lot brighter than [inaudible] through the tunnel. So that's [inaudible] metaphor. I will say that these are from the things
that -- another key point is talk to the professor. Get to know the professor. I think that that's one of the main keys of
success too. I think for me I -- when I was going through college, I want to kind of think back to some of the professors
that [inaudible] or made me feel belong. It's what allowed me to continue to go back and seek help from the professor.
So talk to professors, ask them for advice, ask them for information on your classes that you don't know or information
that you might -- even though you might know but ask because you want to build that connection with the professor. So
just go and talk to the professor, [inaudible] some questions and go and ask them for help. You might already have the
information but by talking to them, it builds that connection. It builds that relationship with the professor. So it's a plus
>> Great. That is excellent advice. Do you have any advice for self-care? A lot of our Fresno State students are stressed
because of the similar barriers that you might have or not. Can you give them any advice about self-care?
>> Wow. I think a lot of times that's -- I think [inaudible] that much because [inaudible] all of the responsibilities that
we do, but yeah. I believe that self-care is important and I think that for me I utilize self-care or I do a lot of self-care too
by doing the things that keeps me calm, that allows me to be relaxed, that allows me to reflect back on what I did wrong
or what I did not do right and that is self-care and me, I enjoy being outdoors. I enjoy hiking.
>> Oh great.
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>> I enjoy being at the lake, yeah. I enjoy being at the lake. Even though I don't go fishing or I go fishing, I do it not to
the point where it distracts me from being successful at my academic goals, but [inaudible] only enough to allow me to
refresh my mind. And so really it's that self-discipline that sometime you will get carried away and say oh, [inaudible]
I'll just go and fish, fish, fish while I have homework assignments or writing projects or research papers that I need to
get done in three days. I say oh, I'll do it next day [inaudible] discipline yourself enough to that point where you -where your self-care becomes a benefit, but if you don't discipline yourself, it will become a distraction.
>> That's a great point.
>> I think that for me -- yeah, I think for me that's something I had to remind myself all the time.
>> Wonderful. That is excellent advice. Is there anything else you want to share? If not, I will close up the interview.
But I just want to thank you so much to all -- for myself but also the many students who will listen to your story.
>> Yeah. I will say that maybe the final point I might want to share is continue to push yourself even though you might
not see any benefit in what you do. That's how I did it. I think that a lot of time when we second guess ourselves or we
push our career goals, our career choice, that's when we kind of doubt that we'll be able to be successful at it. So do not
doubt yourself, continue to push yourself and I think that when you do that, you'll be able to -- once [inaudible] you'll be
able to see that you will be able to see that what you did was something that not only allows you to overcome challenges
but [inaudible] for the long run.
>> Great. Thank you so much and I'm going to close this.
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your name and spell it?
>> Yes. My name is Tom -- T-O-M. Last name is Thao, T-H-A-O.
>> Can you give me verbal permission to interview you and to deposit your successful Southeast Asian interview in our
Successful Southeast Asian Archive in Fresno State in situ if needed for academic purposes?
>> Yes, I do. I do approve to be interviewed and to be part of this project.
>> Great. Thank you so much. The students are very grateful to you as well as I for giving us your great advice. Okay, if
you can say your name and spell it.
>> My name is Tom Thao. T-O-M and T-H-A-O.
>> Great. What is your gender?
>> I'm male.
>> What is -- and don't tell me the date, but just tell me the year. What is the year of your birth?
>> The year of my birth is 1979.
>> Okay. Excellent. What is your ethnic group and where were you born?
>> My ethnic group is [inaudible]. I was born in Laos.
>> Excellent. What was your undergraduate major?
>> My undergraduate major is liberal studies.
>> And where did you get your Bachelor's degree at?
>> At CSU Fresno, Fresno State.
>> Great. What is your Mom and Father's highest education?
>> Honestly, I don't believe they have any education. My Mom, she never had the chance to attend any schooling back
in Laos, although my Dad when he was in the -- when the war started in Laos, he had some chance to go through some
education in the military. So that was it.
>> Okay. Looking back at the family that you grew up with, what -- how many brothers and sisters did you have?
>> I have -- I'm the youngest one. So I have -- yeah. I have two -- my family is a little complicated. I do have more like
stepbrother and half brothers. All of them about -- I have about four -- three half brothers and sisters about three half
sisters, too.
>> Oh, wow. Okay. And what was your GPA in college?
>> My GPA? Undergrad or in grad?
>> Do you have a graduate degree?
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>> I do.
>> Oh, great. In what?
>> In education. So it's multilingual, multicultural education.
>> Oh excellent. Students want to know so anything you want to volunteer.
>> Okay. Undergrad, my GPA was roughly about average [inaudible] was 2.75. And then my graduate degree is 3.8.
>> Oh, excellent. What high school did you go to and was your high school public or private?
>> My high school is public high school. The school is McClain High School in Fresno [inaudible].
>> Where's McClain High School?
>> McClain High School is on Cedar and Clinton Avenue.
>> Oh, interesting. What was the racial and ethnic demographics of your high school?
>> I believe it was primarily [inaudible] predominantly Hispanic and then Asian at the time [inaudible]. I'll say about 15
percent of the student population there and then African American students [inaudible] are like [inaudible].
>> Interesting. Why do [inaudible] go to college? Why or why not?
>> Why do I want to go to college? Wow. I think that's something that when I was younger I think my parents always
mentioned or encouraged me to get an education. I think that was something that when I was younger I didn't know
much about but every day my Mom will say you need to continue to go to school or school [inaudible]. If you don't
want to do any hard labor or hard work, education will be the key to open many opportunities and doors for you. So you
don't end up working a farm or working in jobs that require a lot of physical work.
>> So your Mom told you that?
>> Yes.
>> Wow, interesting. What about your father? Did he say anything?
>> He did. At the time I didn't live with my father, but anytime we had the opportunity or the chance, he will tell me
about education as well. So it was more like encouragement and motivating me to continue to do good. I think my
Mom, she's the one that really just taking care of me and pushing me and reminding me about school and education so
[inaudible]. Yeah.
>> Interesting. As the youngest, are you the first one to go to college or did your other siblings who are older, did they
go to college and graduate?
>> I am the first one in my family to go to college and graduate with a Bachelor degree and also with a Masters degree.
>> Goodness. Looking back, why do you think your other siblings -- you had a lot of siblings -- how come they didn't
go to college and graduate?
>> Most of them, they didn't have the opportunity to go to school because they were a lot older when we came to the
United States. So they didn't have the chance to go to school. They were married and have kids [inaudible] before we
came over. When they got here, it was family, kids and job and so they really didn't have the chance to go to school. It
was more like they had to sacrifice the family for school if they really have to go to school.
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>> So did they ->> Between family and work and -- yeah.
>> Did they all push you then? Did all the siblings push you to go to college? Your graduation must have been a big
party.
>> They -- sometimes they do, a lot of times they do remind me especially the brother I live with or at the time when I
was younger, he was the one that took care of me along with my Mom. He also reminded me -- he also pushed me to do
good as well. A lot of time he would tell me stories about schools in Laos when he was going through school in Laos
and compare his education back in Laos to the states, and that actually now he's painting a picture where opportunities
here are a lot better than back in Laos. So [inaudible].
>> What story did he specifically say?
>> Huh?
>> What -- how was it different in Laos? How is it different here?
>> Oh, one of the stories I recall he was telling me about back in Laos he was going through school. He didn't have a lot
of -- well [inaudible] much further away. They have to walk about half a day to get to school and when they do go, they
have to stay there for the -- so it was not like here in the states where you can walk to school. It takes us five minutes to
walk to school and come back. And then we have food at home ready and back in Laos, sometimes you have to scamper
for food. They had to find -- they have to go out and find food for dinner and stuff like that. So he was telling me these
stories and makes me realize now that schools here [inaudible] especially public education [inaudible]. You really take
advantage of [inaudible].
>> That's an excellent example. Thank you. What about your teachers? Do you think your teachers, do they have high
expectations of you?
>> I'd say that in -- when I was a lot younger especially in elementary school I think that they do have higher
expectation of me, but at the time I think I was too -- I didn't realize it at the time because I didn't speak English at all
when I came. So I didn't know that they were expecting me to do well, but I did a lot of time. They do push me to
continue to do my best to learn, and I think that's one of the ways that they expect me to do well -- have high
expectation for me. But in high school, yeah. I remember some of the -- especially one of the biology teachers in my
sophomore year, she really pushes me to do good in the class. In the beginning, I really didn't do good. I think it was the
lack of knowledge or not understanding the whole biology concept. And so she really pushed me. She teaches me
different ways how I can study for the test and all of that and towards the end, I was able to do good and improve my
grades and so I really think that that teacher makes a big difference in my -- I would say my educational [inaudible] by
not only expecting me to do good but also providing me different techniques on how to do good in school.
>> Okay, great. What about your co-ethnics? Did they have high expectations of the southeast Asians?
>> [Inaudible] I think so. We do have some friends who are I would say in high school I do have a [inaudible] friend, a
Caucasian friend a lot of times we challenge each other in terms of what can we do to better ourselves, and a lot of times
he also provides a lot of support and also encourages us to continue to do good. So I think that's something that I do see
that the -- if you become good friends with them, they will expect you to do good or at least to do better than them. At
least, that's how I feel.
>> Great. Do you remember any notable media depictions of your ethnic group?
>> Can you repeat that again?
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>> Do you remember growing up do you remember any media depictions of your ethnic group such as in news or
movies or social media?
>> I recall in high school most of the time [inaudible] depiction of my ethnic group [inaudible]. Not so much about
academic success or success in career wise, but [inaudible] because at the time when I was growing up, it was in the mid
90's, in the 1990's and during that time in Fresno there were a lot of gang issues and a lot of Asian gangs.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Yeah. It was a lot of Asian gangs and a lot of issues around gangs. So that was -- whenever we see an Asian person
[inaudible] on t.v., it's usually violence, related to gangs or [inaudible] what not. Yeah.
>> Do you think that this hampered your academic success or had no effect on you?
>> I think that it pushes me to be a better person. So in a way, it kind of -- I don't want to say it hampers, although it
does portray negative connotation in mainstream community. But at the same time what I do with that is I utilize that as
a way to make myself a better person so that I can continue to do good and stay away from any gang related issue or
other identified gang members that [inaudible] individuals who might be gang and stay away from them because I don't
want to be associated with any of that. That's how I kind of see it.
>> Oh, okay wow. Interesting. So you kind of protect yourself academically. Thinking back at your high school, do you
think your high school academically prepared you for college?
>> I [inaudible] I don't think they are doing that great in terms of academically preparing me for college. I think that
they could do better [inaudible].
>> Okay, in what way?
>> So compare and contrast because when I went to college, I think I had a lot of -- I struggled a lot with academic
[inaudible] in terms of doing research paper and all of that and as far as understanding or finding a way to [inaudible]
not so much -- well I think just the fact that they're not pushing us or they're not providing academic training that will
[inaudible] college because I think a lot of times we [inaudible] high school and thought that should be good enough for
college, but [inaudible] all those [inaudible] and all those materials and classes in college are totally different than high
school. A lot of times when we do research in high school, we are not expected to provide resource or let's say source
and we're not being expected -- we're not expected to utilize or go out and do extensive research on a certain topic that
we wanted to talk about. [Inaudible] when I went into college, that is something that I struggle a lot because I didn't
know how to do research then to help with my research paper and so I think that giving classes, providing classes for
students to become more literate in not only academic but I will say time management, resource, campus resource, that
sort of thing. I think that [inaudible] to us more it will be very helpful at the time as well.
>> Great. Thinking back on your college career, you said that you weren't academically prepared for high school. Do
you think if you had any barriers at all in college in terms of graduation such as cultural or educational? You talked
about educational. Financial, health, gender. For example, do you think that it'd be easier if you were a woman going
through college, a [inaudible] woman or no effect?
>> I think in regards to gender, I don't see as a barrier for me, but I think what seems to be the barrier for me is the
cultural effect. A lot of times I think that when you become a young adult you have a lot of expectations. And at the
time, when I did my first year in college, I had to take care of my Mom. At the time, she was about 60 years old and so
she didn't speak any English. She don't know how to drive. It's really much up to me to provide that care for her. So
[inaudible] responsibility and at the same time the responsibility of financial. I do receive financial aid, but that was
enough to cover the school expense and all of that. I had to find a part-time job and so it really created a challenge for
me to manage my time which [inaudible] time management were to be a subject that we learn in high school or
introduce in high school, I think it will have helped me a lot, but that's time management, responsibility and [inaudible]
our culture usually prepares [inaudible].
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>> Oh.
>> I have that responsibility and sometimes it's hard to stay late at school to really study because they'll always being
say, where you at? I mean, it's 10 o'clock. You should be home. And so I think even though being a boy, a man at the
time of school, college I still have the responsibility. So it's still a challenge as relates to culture.
>> That's a good point. Thank you. That's a lot of parent care. Did you have to take care of kids at all? You talked about
working was a barrier, financial taking care of your parents. What about children? Did you have to take care of children
or grandparents?
>> I don't have any grandparents, but my sophomore year I got married, and my wife and I we had our first born, our
first son in my sophomore year in college, and yeah.
>> Wow.
>> That is a -- that's another responsibility, talking about responsibility. Now I have a family, a family that I have to
make sure that I take care of them, my son, my wife and my Mom. So it's just -- instead of releasing that responsibility, I
created more of a challenge for me in regards to responsibility.
>> So we have a lot of parents at Fresno State. How did you do it? How did you take care of all these people?
>> I think when my wife and I we got married, both of us were -- she's the oldest one and I'm the youngest one. In her
family, she's the oldest one, and in my family I'm the youngest one. So I think how I was able to do it is that we
motivate each other. We promote, we push each other. I think that's what really got me to stay in school and do good in
school because at the time I didn't have kids but I think my Mom when we have our son, she wanted to help me and my
wife [inaudible] our son, our first child. We were attending school and work. So I mean, really [inaudible] and while I'm
at school and working, she's doing that.
>> Wow. Thinking back, do you think you had any other barriers that I didn't ask you about?
>> Any other barriers? Let's see. I -- I will say that it will be language because although at the time when I was going
through high school in my first two or three years of college, I really struggled to [inaudible] I would say about
[inaudible]. Being outspoken, [inaudible] that is really -- I would say that is a challenge for me or barrier for me because
it really limits what I can do for myself. At the same time, it limits what I could do to help me be more successful. That's
how I see, that's something I wish I could do something better, if I could improve, that would be an area that I wanted to
improve on.
>> Did you ask for help? Did you go to office hours?
>> Honestly, sometimes I did. But I think that it's also part of the culture aspect that it's like you feel ashamed to go ask
for help, ask something that [inaudible] at the time. I don't know why I felt like that but I was struggling like that at the
time when I was going to college and sometimes I do go in there and ask for help and sometimes when I go in there, I
ask one or two questions, that's all.
>> Okay.
>> So yeah. That's one of the -- I would say one of the challenges that I wish I could ->> Were you mentored at all in college?
>> Mentored? No.
>> Okay. So we're going to move onto the last parts of -- last five questions is [inaudible]. So let's talk about Mr. Tom.
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Have you had a lot of barriers? You talked about -- you said being the youngest son, financial, having a son, family, all
these six barriers, but you are very successful. You have a B.A. and M.A. with all those barriers. Why do you think your
personality your, Mr. Tom, made it when so many other people didn't make it? So where are your -- let's talk about your
personality. Why were you able to make it, like achieve all this high success?
>> I think it goes back down to determination and goals. I mean, I could be very good -- I would say I could be very
good with having good skill sets in let's say academically. I could be good at reading, writing, math all of that, but if I
do not have the determination for the goals to achieve something, to achieve that academic goals that I have, I will not
be able to do it and that's how I think -- although I know that I lack certain skills [inaudible] aspects, my academic
career, I still believe that I can do it and I persevered through a lot of -- the challenge and a lot of the struggles I have.
And I think that that's really what got me to where I am today. It's really [inaudible] and also the perseverance because a
lot of times you're going to have to overcome a lot of struggles, a lot of barriers and challenge [inaudible] such as what I
mentioned earlier that you will have responsibility, cultural barriers, language barriers or just sometimes it would be just
situations that just affects you in your academic [inaudible] and you're going to have to be able to persevere through that
because of your determination.
>> Okay.
>> That was it.
>> So Tom, is this your personality you've always had since third grade?
>> I really think that I didn't know I had that personality until I was in high school. And so I think it was a lot of -- most
of the time it was reflecting back to the life that I have where I [inaudible] refugee camps where we didn't have anything
at all when we were in the refugee camp. Not the food, not the clothes, not the freedom. So when I got here, I was going
to school but at the same time I didn't know that was [inaudible], but I do feel that I do believe that all of those struggles
and all of those hardships that I lived through allows me to have this personality I think. So yeah, I [inaudible] it's a
challenge [inaudible] I lived through it and so I look back and sometimes I look at my nieces and nephews and those
guys were born here and sometimes they -- I see that they may not have the determination or the [inaudible] I think they
do, but they don't have the hardships.
>> Right. So thinking back, you are extremely successful and particularly for a first generation or 1.5. What do -- can
you think back, you talked about your Mom helped you and encouraged you. You talked about how your wife helped
you and then your brother helped you. Can you think of anything else that was a bridge that helped you graduate college
such as were you a dancer, friend, community, church, religion? Think of now all the things that you think helped you
do well and graduate in college. What were those things?
>> Yeah, [inaudible] I do have a group of friends that we graduated the same year and we kind of pushed each other.
The other one that I see -- I [inaudible] him a lot through my high school years because they're the [inaudible] that were
born here and I find myself to be the only one who was born abroad and lived in refugee camps [inaudible] here. And so
[inaudible] with them and so I think that having them as friends and having them there allows me to leverage [inaudible]
through school. And I think that we helped each other anytime when I have school work or homework, what I will do is
I'll go and ask them for help. Not so much would they tutor me, but ask them to kind of [inaudible] or give me ideas.
Some of those things, and we pushed each other and we went into college. I didn't know what I was studying. I didn't
really have a career choice at the time I was -- I got into college, but it was those friends like hey, we're going to go to
college, okay? Let's applied to this college. And so it was really also that kind of just in a way, kind of like peer pressure
that just okay. So my chance of going [inaudible]. So I didn't really think about oh man, I need to get a job. But I did. I
applied to college with my friends and we went to Fresno State, and then about -- when we find time to hang out, to
study together even though we have different classes, different majors. We kind of helped each other through college as
well.
>> So Mr. Tom -- go on.
>> Yeah.
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>> Mr. Tom, at the time did you know that you were a trailblazer at the time when you were going to college?
>> No. I did not know.
>> You must know now, right?
>> I hope I was. I hope I am because I think maybe for my -- in my family I might be the trailblazer in my family but
beyond my family, I don't know.
>> Any cousins in your generation? Not the nieces or nephews but any cousins go to college?
>> I do. I have one cousin who is about two years older than me. He went, and he [inaudible] in computer technician,
something like that. And so him and then two younger cousins who was born in Laos, and we grew up here . They also
have their B.A. degrees from Fresno State.
>> So do you think -- did you help them? Did they know about you? Did that affect them?
>> Yeah. We are actually very close. Growing up, we were real close. We visited each other a lot, and anytime we have
family traditions or family events, family functions, we see each other and when my two younger cousins who were
attending Fresno State, they actually came and stayed with me in my three bedroom apartment for about a year before
they moved out to live on their own.
>> Wow.
>> They were living -- at the time they [inaudible].
>> Oh.
>> They [inaudible]. They share the apartment and the rent with me and that -- I think that helps them to [inaudible]
financial support and allowed them to stay out, school, study for their [inaudible]. I think that's something that helps
them too.
>> So you mentored within your family a lot. Think about yourself. Do you think that your community helped you at all
or your religion helped you at all or did they have no effect?
>> I don't think my community helped me in any way other than I [inaudible] in my ethnic group, my community
[inaudible]. I think that helps me in that sense that I feel okay, [inaudible] my culture. Although [inaudible] sometimes
speaking [inaudible] speaking, I might not feel comfortable talking about certain aspects of my culture. In my culture,
the [inaudible]. It is my concern. I need to be part of it. So I think in that sense I [inaudible] but I think that in terms of
[inaudible] I really don't think my community has any influence on me or my cultural or religious beliefs.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah, I don't think it also affects me.
>> Okay. So the last questions are things -- you've gone through Fresno State. We have a retention issue particularly for
southeast Asians, particularly for males. Tell me if you want this or do you think this would be helpful for Fresno State
students. Do you want smaller classes?
>> I do.
>> Do you want more co-ethnic professors?
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>> Yes.
>> Do you want more co-ethnic classmates?
>> Yes.
>> Do you want more ethnic clubs?
>> Yes.
>> Do you want more college success workshops and what type of workshop do you want?
>> I think right now based on what I have seen at Fresno State and all the success workshops, I think they have a fairly
good amount so I would say that continue to do that and I think in terms of workshops, I would say maybe one of them
would be understanding the personal challenge.
>> Okay.
>> Maybe identify your own challenges and then maybe overcome it because a lot of times what I always say to some
of the younger folks that I come across is that yeah, we can say -- we can give you all the great ideas, all the [inaudible]
you can be successful but if you don't overcome the challenge that you have or the personal challenge that is holding
you back, you will not be able to apply the skills that we are telling you. I think that might be able to -- it might be
helpful and useful for some of the students.
>> Definitely, thank you. That's very important. I'll [inaudible] that. Thank you. Do you think there's anything I didn't
ask you about any successful bridges? If not, I'll go to the last question.
>> Successful bridges. I would say that you did ask about co-ethnic or [inaudible] and I think right now we do have
[inaudible] at Fresno State but not enough to where we could ask for help or not to the point where the professors, the
[inaudible] professors there could do or could make an impact, and I think it would be great to have more professors and
maybe develop some type of [inaudible] at Fresno State.
>> Develop a support group? Okay.
>> Yeah. I know the clubs and the fraternities, they're great. But some students like myself when I was going to college
I -- because of my responsibility and my family, I didn't have a chance to participate in clubs because I felt that if I
[inaudible], it would take too much time away from my family and making sure that I take care of my responsibilities at
home so I didn't participate in any clubs at all.
>> So Mr. Tom ->> So I think that by having ->> But having -- go on, sorry, having ->> Yeah and so by having support groups will allow other students who do have -- who have less amount of time to
participate in clubs, they can utilize the support group to help them [inaudible].
>> So Mr. Tom, thinking back at yourself, you had children in college. Would a success group -- how could we get you
to a success -- a support group if you have kids? Would it be online? Would it be more accessible to you?
>> Online class?
>> Online support group.
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>> Oh, online support group? I think that might help to a certain extent. I also think that maybe it will -- maybe meeting
the person [inaudible] when I need to talk to somebody, I think that I could talk to a person and set a time where it
allows me to go and see the person. I think that will also help as well.
>> Okay.
>> Yes, online would be good. Back then I think when I was growing through my Bachelor's, there was no online
support group or that sort of thing. So yeah, I think this should be good too, online support.
>> Okay, great. So my last question is advice to the third generation, fourth generation. And even now the present
second generation. For instance, if you were speaking to your nieces and nephews, what advice could you give them to
be as successful as you in academics to graduate? What advice can you give them?
>> I always say to my nieces and nephews to [inaudible] go to school. I think as much working experience as you can
related to your general studies. I know that looking back I think that what -- I wish I could do that because the
responsibility that I have at home I would like to [inaudible]. I was not able to go out there and be more involved in the
school campus or involved in activities that relate to my field of study, relates to my major. And so I lacked that skill
and that's what I also encourage them because the more involved you become, you also see individuals that are
successful in that career path that maybe you want to follow and so by [inaudible] individuals like that, it also allows
you to understand that you could do it and also allows you to build that network with that individual and if you need
help in something that relates to that career or that academic class that you wanted to do, you could have that person that
you could look up to, you could connect with. So by doing internship, getting involved in the community or school,
[inaudible] part of a club that's even better. If not, being involved, just participate in school activities that they might
have such as maybe the workshops. A lot of times the workshops allow the students to meet other students as well and
be outspoken. I will say that that's something that [inaudible] but I see a lot of the third and fourth generation, they're
more outspoken if they need something. So continue to be outspoken even though when you feel that you don't need
something or you feel like you understand something, just ask. And I learned the only answer you will get by asking is
no and if somebody says no to you, it's okay. Go the next person and ask. Maybe they'll be able to provide you with
information that you need [inaudible]. Besides that, I would say have determination, continue to find that determination
whatever that is [inaudible]. Find a reason to push yourself even though it may seem hard. It may seem hard. Find a
reason to go -- to keep on going. And so I think that determination, continue to have that. Persevere. A lot of times we
might have a lot of responsibility, a lot of situations happen all the time in our life and problems will always arise but
[inaudible] problems are only temporary and they will go away. But if you persevere through your problems and you
could overcome the problems, you will -- at the end, you will have a better I would say like the light at the tunnel will be
a lot brighter than [inaudible] through the tunnel. So that's [inaudible] metaphor. I will say that these are from the things
that -- another key point is talk to the professor. Get to know the professor. I think that that's one of the main keys of
success too. I think for me I -- when I was going through college, I want to kind of think back to some of the professors
that [inaudible] or made me feel belong. It's what allowed me to continue to go back and seek help from the professor.
So talk to professors, ask them for advice, ask them for information on your classes that you don't know or information
that you might -- even though you might know but ask because you want to build that connection with the professor. So
just go and talk to the professor, [inaudible] some questions and go and ask them for help. You might already have the
information but by talking to them, it builds that connection. It builds that relationship with the professor. So it's a plus
>> Great. That is excellent advice. Do you have any advice for self-care? A lot of our Fresno State students are stressed
because of the similar barriers that you might have or not. Can you give them any advice about self-care?
>> Wow. I think a lot of times that's -- I think [inaudible] that much because [inaudible] all of the responsibilities that
we do, but yeah. I believe that self-care is important and I think that for me I utilize self-care or I do a lot of self-care too
by doing the things that keeps me calm, that allows me to be relaxed, that allows me to reflect back on what I did wrong
or what I did not do right and that is self-care and me, I enjoy being outdoors. I enjoy hiking.
>> Oh great.
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>> I enjoy being at the lake, yeah. I enjoy being at the lake. Even though I don't go fishing or I go fishing, I do it not to
the point where it distracts me from being successful at my academic goals, but [inaudible] only enough to allow me to
refresh my mind. And so really it's that self-discipline that sometime you will get carried away and say oh, [inaudible]
I'll just go and fish, fish, fish while I have homework assignments or writing projects or research papers that I need to
get done in three days. I say oh, I'll do it next day [inaudible] discipline yourself enough to that point where you -where your self-care becomes a benefit, but if you don't discipline yourself, it will become a distraction.
>> That's a great point.
>> I think that for me -- yeah, I think for me that's something I had to remind myself all the time.
>> Wonderful. That is excellent advice. Is there anything else you want to share? If not, I will close up the interview.
But I just want to thank you so much to all -- for myself but also the many students who will listen to your story.
>> Yeah. I will say that maybe the final point I might want to share is continue to push yourself even though you might
not see any benefit in what you do. That's how I did it. I think that a lot of time when we second guess ourselves or we
push our career goals, our career choice, that's when we kind of doubt that we'll be able to be successful at it. So do not
doubt yourself, continue to push yourself and I think that when you do that, you'll be able to -- once [inaudible] you'll be
able to see that you will be able to see that what you did was something that not only allows you to overcome challenges
but [inaudible] for the long run.
>> Great. Thank you so much and I'm going to close this.
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