See Xiong interview
Item
Title
See Xiong interview
Creator
Xiong, See
Banh, Jenny
Relation
Central Valley Southeast Asian Successful Voices
Coverage
Fresno, California
Date
6/8/2017
Rights
Copyright has been transferred to Fresno State
Identifier
SCMS_casv_00023
extracted text
>> Hello, Missy. Thank you so much for coming here. This is a -- I'm very grateful for you, and this might have huge
effects because what you say will affect the next generation of southeast Asians, so you can speak of yourself but also of
the community, the entire Hmong community. You can speak of that as well because we're looking for, not just
individual stories, but collective stories to improve the graduation rates. So, 12% is low but improved from 7%. So, let's
start. Can you say your name?
>> So, my name is See Xiong. It's spelled S as in Sam, ee, last name is Xiong. And today is Wednesday, June 8th, 2013.
>> And can you give me verbal permission?
>> And I give my permission to be recorded today.
>> All right. Okay. Thank you so much. What is the gender that you identify as?
>> I identify as a female.
>> What is your birth year and also what is the ethnic [inaudible] that you identify as?
>> I was born in 1989, and I identify as a Hmong person.
>> Okay. What was your undergraduate major? What's your graduate major?
>> My undergraduate major was criminology with emphasis on law enforcement, and my graduate major is counseling
emphasis on student affairs and college counseling.
>> Are you a first generation, second, or third generation?
>> I'm a 1.5 generation.
>> What is the highest graduation rate -- what is your highest education rate of your mom and dad?
>> My parents never received any formal education so I was an unidentified.
>> What is your GPA?
>> My undergraduate -- I graduate in my undergrad program with a 3.12. My current graduate program GPA is 4.0.
>> Excellent. What is your ultimate degree aspiration?
>> I'll be graduating in the spring of 2018 with my master of science in counseling degree, and then my aspiration is to
achieve a Ph.D. degree in education.
>> Excellent. EdD or Ph.D. [inaudible]?
>> Ph.D. in education.
>> Okay. Great. Was your high school -- oh sorry. What was your socioeconomic background? Were you working
class, middle class, affluent, and also what high school? Was it public or private?
>> We came to the United States in '94 so my parents never worked. So, we're considered low-income because I was on
welfare until I was 18, and I went to public school.
>> What high school?
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>> I went to four different high schools. So, I went to McLane High School in Fresno. Then I transferred to Clovis High
in Clovis, and then I transferred back to Sunnyside High School. That's where I graduated. I also did a career path
program at Duncan Polytech in Fresno.
>> Okay. Excellent. What was the ethnic makeup of all the high schools that you went to?
>> I spent most of my time in Fresno definitely. Most of all the schools I went to in Fresno have a large [inaudible]
Asian, especially south Asian student body ->> What type?
>> -- and Hispanic mixed student body. There were definitely white Hispanic and white people. When I went to Clovis
High, there was a definitely a lot of more white and white Hispanic. There was a small South Asian community
[inaudible]. There's some Hmong folks living in Clovis as well.
>> Okay. Great. Do Hmong students have strong relationships with administrators and faculty? Why or why not?
>> Based on my experience, when I was in undergrad, I didn't have that kind of experience. I think that I didn't feel like
it was something you can actually have. Like you can have a good relationship with faculty and staff who could support
you. I didn't join a lot of clubs so I didn't have an advisor or I didn't have -- at that time, I graduated 2012 so prior to
2012, we didn't have the different college academic advising center. So, I didn't have people scheduling me to meet with
them. And I didn't do really poorly so I didn't get caught in academic referral, so I didn't really meet with any staff who
could support me. I didn't know administration. I didn't know the difference between staff, IT, administration, but my
graduate program I think as a much older student, I have more confidence to build a good relationship with faculty and
staff and to make sure I feel that I can support my academic endeavors.
>> Do Hmong students in general?
>> So I see Hmong students in general. I don't see a lot of interaction with faculty, staff, and the administrator.
>> Interesting.
>> I know a few students who do have that kind of support system but I just personally, I believe that a large number of
Hmong students don't have that kind of support system because we wasn't raise to ask questions or ask for help so
[inaudible].
>> Can you speak more of the cultural?
>> How I was raised was you just supposed to work hard, and you didn't ask questions or you didn't show people that
you needed help. If you have a problem you just have to work really hard and you'll be successful. Faculty, staff, and
administrator on campus are very supportive but unless you make it known that you have a problem or you're having a
concern, then they wouldn't even know that you even exist. So, I think coming from that kind of culture makes it really
hard for the student and the staff and faculty to actually connect.
>> Good point. All right. So, what was the teacher's expectation of you and what was the teacher's expectations of your
co-ethnics in school?
>> My overall experience, I think that the expectation is that we are the group of hardworking individuals to begin with
and just being [inaudible], in general we do have a good number of Hmong staff faculty and now Dr. Melissa as
administrator. I think this idea that Asians students, especially Hmong students who -- the largest group of Asian
students on campus are Hmong, so we work hard and we have perseverance and we are very persistent. So, we'll
definitely be successful.
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>> Okay. Excellent. Thank you. Do you remember any notable media depictions of your group? And I guess the next
question I'll ask after that is, do you feel like you were academically prepared for college?
>> [Inaudible] depiction, I think we are always on the news whenever there's a domestic violence dispute.
>> Oh, what?
>> Domestic violence.
>> Oh, really?
>> Especially in the Valley. No, I think everywhere. Like the Valley here in Fresno, California, Minnesota. If there is a
domestic violence dispute or someone die, it become this media frenzy about culture.
>> What do you mean by domestic violence? Define it.
>> Domestic violence, I'm thinking more of intimate spousal abuse that lead to violence, that lead to death. And the
media really sensationalize these stories and then ask a lot of question about how culture can play into these violence,
and I think that's how my community has been depicted in the media. That, there's always this question about the
culture, how the culture plays into -- contributing to domestic violence and spousal abuse, and I think that's how people
know our community other than Gran Torino of course.
>> What's Gran Torino?
>> Gran Torino is a movie. Clint Eastwood made it. He directed it. It was about a Hmong family in Detroit, Michigan,
and how they interact with their white [inaudible] neighbor. And I think, it was a great movie.
>> Oh, was it? Okay. I understand.
>> In terms of, as a Christian, it was great, but in terms of how it stereotypes and how it misleads Hmong, it
misrepresent Hmong culture.
>> How?
>> For example, there was a scene where the boy offended his neighbor so the parents took [inaudible] food and to offer
it as restitution to the neighbor, and the wife [inaudible]. [Inaudible] who was played by Clint Eastwood, but the parents
were really persistent and came with this food, and he didn't want any of the food. But that's not what Hmong people do.
We don't take food to our neighbors as a way to say we're sorry. And that's something that we see -- that I have seen
with more like Thai culture. They will offer food, I think from my understanding, it's more like Buddhist culture
because you give foods to the monks and doing weddings and other ceremonies, this gift -- will give gift in food. So, I
didn't think that was a really good depictions of Hmong culture. I don't know what culture does that, but I know my
culture we don't apologize by insisting the person that we have offended take food from us.
>> That is true.
>> Yes. It's really true. It's really weird [inaudible] think that.
>> That's interesting.
>> People ask; right, after the movie came out, and I was still in my undergraduate study then. People will ask, "This is
how your community do. Is this what happens," and I know a professor who teach Asian-American studies or teach
about like cross-cultural [inaudible]. They use Gran Torino as a movie about Hmong people and I don't think that is fair.
I don't think that's accurate to continue to use Gran Torino as a lesson about Hmong community unless you're willing to
talk about the movie itself, how it stereotypes Hmong community.
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>> Right. Great point. Do you think that you were academically prepared for college?
>> I don't think I was prepared for college.
>> In what way?
>> Well, back when I got to Fresno State, the standard was much different. I did well on my SAT, my ACT enough -- I
did well enough that I didn't have to restart program. That's what we call summer school. But I didn't think I was
prepared in the sense that culturally, academically, like the academic culture, I wasn't prepared to enter the academic
culture because I feel like K-12, that's something I was just obligated to do. I was forced to go to school. My parents
will get jail time if they have too many absences. I didn't want to get them in trouble. That's just something you do. You
just go to school. So, I didn't think about college. That's also something you do as well. People apply for college after
that. This is also something you do. So, when I got to college, it was like, "Whoa. You actually have to work. You
actually have to attend class." There's no one holding your hand, and I wasn't prepared for that. I wasn't prepared to be
independent.
>> Okay. Great point. All right. So, we're on the second part is barriers. So, now at this point, you're going to talk about
your own personal barriers but actually your community barriers. So, do you find that you had any barriers to your
educational success such as your four-year graduation rate, and also what are the Hmong barriers to academic success?
>> So, my four year in undergrad.
>> Did you do it in four?
>> Yes, I did it in four.
>> Tell me more. Please tell me more. How did you do it in four? Please.
>> So, I started as a pre-psychology major, but I did all my GE. I did all my GE that I needed to do before I get into my
actual program.
>> You came here straight.
>> Yes. I came straight here. I cannot remember how I applied. I remember applying for Fresno City because they came
through. They applied all the student in class with Fresno City as a backup, but I don't even remember how I applied to
Fresno State. That's just kind of how crazy it was back then because we didn't have ambassadors to come in and
[inaudible] have ambassadors now. Because myself, as an ambassador that go out to the high schools and help facilitate
process. I think my four years -- what worked well for me was that I just went to class, and I just knew I had to do well
in class and also my -- I study -- I was pre-psychology and then I switched to criminology. You know, it was just
something I was really interested in. So, I was just really interested in that program so I wasn't constantly changing.
What works for me was that I didn't have a lot of counseling hours. Like I wasn't an EOP student and that's something
that really followed me for a long time.
>> What is EOP?
>> EOP stands for Educational Opportunity Program. So, EOP is a federally funded program, and at Fresno State -- in
order to get into OP, you have to actually apply a different application. So, you apply to Fresno State and then you apply
to the EOP program. Not every student gets accepted. EOP is only for low-income, primarily low income first
generation students. My other siblings got to EOP but I didn't know, and I didn't even apply to EOP.
>> They came before you or after?
>> Before me and after me.
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>> So you come from a family that goes to college?
>> Yes. I come from a family that ->> That's very rare.
>> Yes. So, my two sisters. One did her associates. The second sister she got her bachelor. I mean, she have kids while
she was going to school. I was the third one to go to college.
>> Oh, you're the third one. That's a big difference. You didn't mention that.
>> So, [inaudible] college.
>> Yes. It's very impressive. All girls?
>> All girls, and I think that also play to it as well. That we're girls so girls can have a more kind of persistent in going
to college. That wouldn't work for me because I didn't go to counseling [inaudible] staff and [inaudible] support I should
have. I did a national exchange program. Fresno State used to have this thing called National Exchange Program. It's a
system-wide program ->> Let me write this down. National -- what is a national ->> National Exchange Program.
>> What is a National Exchange Program?
>> So, you can look it up. The school has to pay a fee to be a part of this system. So, the United States and Canada. So,
schools from Puerto Rico, the United States, and Canada can be a participated program. You pay a fee -- the school pays
a fee to participate in the program. Students can do either one semester or two semesters. They can go to a different
university, pay the school tuition. So, for example, I would pay Fresno State tuition; I will go to a different school.
>> Wow.
>> So I went to the University of Minnesota in Twin City for a semester.
>> Wow.
>> [Inaudible] one semester or two semesters. So, I would take classes at UMF which cost a lot more, but I would pay
Fresno State Tuition which is a lot less.
>> Wow. Okay. And it's called National Exchange Program? We don't have anymore?
>> National Student Exchange Program.
>> We don't have it anymore?
>> We don't have it anymore. So, National Student Exchange Program. I think it's amazing. I like that, but I didn't have
that counseling support. I really struggled when I went there because it's such a big university, and I wasn't prepared for
school -- college to begin with. So, when I came back I had to do a full summer school. I had to do full-time summer
school just to bring my GPA back up and to graduate in four years. So, I was really fortunate that my program has a
[inaudible] certificate so I was able to do it during the summer and then fulfill my program courses that I needed. And
then I took program courses. So, I think it was just a matter of luck or opportunity that I was able to see that I can do
that full-time summer school.
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>> I mean, you're the first four year I've ever met actually in these interviews.
>> Really?
>> Yes.
>> Oh, wow.
>> I mean, I want to know, everyone is six years. Everyone is six.
>> It depends on the major as well. My program, I believe my program can allow you to graduate in four years.
>> So, you can?
>> Economics, psychology, you can graduate in four years. There are other programs like women's studies that you can
do in four years. English, you can do in four years. The humanities you can do in four years. And social science you can
do in four years. What I feel that's preventing students from doing it in four years is when they change their majors
because they don't know what they want to do.
>> Change major. Okay.
>> Or they are taking classes that they don't need. Sometimes they don't know that they don't need those classes.
>> Don't need. Okay.
>> For example, my sister she was told at the beginning of the semester that she had enough classes to graduate. At the
end of the semester, a different counselor told her that no, she didn't fulfill all her classes. She still have some classes
she needed to take. So, she was ready to just be done, and now she's not done. She walked but she still have to take
classes to finish.
>> How many?
>> I think two. One or two. But the fact that she had to come back and finish them, it's very frustrating in the fact that in
the beginning of the semester one counselor said she's good to go, and then another counselor says she's not.
>> So bad counseling.
>> Yes. Bad counseling and no one is taking responsibility for that except the students. So, students [inaudible] bad
counseling. At the end of the day, the student is the only one who's affected by it.
>> Right.
>> Because when you thought in general that you're ready to graduate, you don't need any more classes. You already
registered for all classes that you need, you're not thinking about -- you're thinking about just graduating and doing what
you have to do. You're not thinking about coming back to school. You're not thinking about saving up money to pay for
summer school tuition or fall tuition.
>> Good point.
>> [Inaudible] the student not the counselor who just didn't do the job.
>> Can you think of other barriers particularly for males, like male Hmong? Because we know it's a gender issue for
graduation. What is the issue? But what are their barrier?
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>> Based on what I see, based on the male students that I work with and my peers and my [inaudible], I think has to do
with how we have a culture, a Hmong culture that doesn't -- that expect boys to become man the moment they get
married, right? So, you get to be boys your whole life. The moment you get married, you're just expected to be a man.
You're just expected to just know and there's not an urgency to train boys. Basically, what I've seen is as a woman, we
have to cook, clean, do all those domestic things since we're born. So, for the longest time, we have to learn to care of
ourselves, we have to take care of our brothers and our parents. So, we're always looking for ways on how to support
ourselves, right? Men, they don't. They just learn how to live to be men, and they are just expected to just know how to
be men later when they become a man, and they're just expected to get a job and support their family. But it's not with
that -- the habit, they were not trained to acquire this habit of acquiring support. So, when they come to college, they
just expect them to know. But they don't have this lifetime of learning that this is who you talk to. Like, it's okay to ask
for help, and it's okay to show that you're not really [inaudible] what you're doing. It's okay to be wrong. Just ask for
help.
>> Do you think -- you talked earlier about asking questions. They don't ask questions?
>> They don't ask questions. Yes. Rather it's about school. Like in general, they don't ask their classes. They don't ask
questions about what's missing.
>> So, you spoke about your sister got bad counseling, right?
>> Uh-huh.
>> So, are these Hmong men, are they getting bad counseling? What is their barrier? So, they don't ask questions. I don't
know about counseling but what are the other -- as growing masculinity they're not trained as a youngster to be
independent. Anything else?
>> I think -- like when I was in undergrad, we didn't have the academic counseling center. I think, yes, that's counseling.
Not going to your counselor.
>> Not going to your counselor.
>> Because even now with the Academic Counseling Center, they don't have the capacity to meet all students.
>> Okay. Of course.
>> So, students who go because they know something they want to go to the counseling either they want to talk about
something that they already know or they get referred by their professor. So, if you're a student who's doing okay; you
might have other problems. You might want to talk to them about grad school or whatever, but because you're not doing
bad, you're not doing poorly, your professor is not going to be referring you to counseling. And if they don't think that
you have a problem, you're not going to go to counseling on your own. And counselors, because you're not an at-risk
student, you're not marked as at-risk, they won't call you out because you're not marked as at-risk. So, they don't talk to
every student. If you're doing really good, they'll talk to you because you're doing really good. You're doing really bad,
they'll talk to you. But in my experience, if the student is smack in the middle, those are the students who are going to
graduate and most of them would be like, "I don't know what to do with my life." Bad counseling, lack of counseling,
lack of capacity on the resource side ->> Lack of capacity.
>> -- and the cultural [inaudible] affect how the student see themselves so they might not seek help because they're not
confident about seeking help. So, all of these things -- and when these things clash and that's why the student tends to be
like, they're just there. They just come to school.
>> So what is the alternative for a Hmong man or a woman if they don't go to college. What is the alternative -- what
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other jobs will they do?
>> Well, people I know who don't go to college they -- a lot of folks join the military. Some join right out of college.
Someone joined the military after years of not ->> Which military?
>> Most of them join the army because most of the ones I know join the army because it's much more prevalence. When
they think of the military, they think of the army. So, we have Army recruitment here. You see the Army all the time,
plus infantry. They don't join the Army right out of high school because those are not who join the Army; the military
right out of high school. They already think about joining it when they're graduating, right? So, there are some who join
years later. If they don't get through college, they'll work and then they'll join the military.
>> What kind of working will they do?
>> Full time. I know people who are nursing assistants. I know people who do factory work like warehouse work. I
know a couple of mailman. Like for me, the mailman I know have Bachelor's degrees.
>> That's a high-paying job. That's a high-paying job.
>> That's a high paying job but ->> Those are high paying.
>> -- the gentlemen that's doing -- they not hired [inaudible] because they have tenure, they're not hired full-time.
They're hired as per diem.
>> For mailman?
>> Or part time or per diem. So, they don't have the benefits. But the thing is, they have Bachelor's degrees ->> Interesting.
>> -- but they're not working in their field of studies and they're a mailman because it pays well and it's flexible. The
moment you're done with your route, you just go home. But those who aren't in school, I know they tend to be more like
factory jobs or services.
>> What's a factory job?
>> You can work in a warehouse.
>> But what do you do?
>> You do like shipments. I know a friend he works in a warehouse. So, he do like purchasing and inventory. I know a
couple of women who are certified nursing assistant because you can get certified nursing assistant certificate and you
just renew every other seven years, you just have to renew it. Those folks are the ones who work for the nurses but they
didn't go to school, and nursing school is very competitive.
>> Oh, is it? Okay.
>> Yes.
>> What about farming?
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>> Most Hmong youth farm because their parents farm, but they don't make it a living. I only know one student. He
have a bachelor degree. He have a financial job but he decided to do farming because that's he wanted to do. But that
was by choice. He already have a stable financial job. > Wow.
>> He wanted to do farming. But it's not his parents. It's he as the farmer. But most people I know, they don't do
farming with their family as the default. They're not a farmer. They do [inaudible] to support the parents. I know a
[inaudible] friend at Fresno State. He didn't graduate the year that I graduated. He was supposed to graduate but he still
have one class. He now went to that class. He's [inaudible] class so he never walk. My understanding was he joined the
military [inaudible] one class. I don't think he ever walked. The last I heard he said he joined the military but I don't
think he ever did. But he ended up being a salesman for solar panels, and I never heard from him again. And those are
the kinds of things. You start doing sales, services, homecare, factory warehouse, stuff like that. Very few outliers
[inaudible] optimal experience.
>> So something about your family is in particular that's very rare, you have three college graduates in your family.
What did your family do to get you -- I mean that's a very rare, right? How did your family get three college graduates
in one family?
>> We have four now. Five actually.
>> Tell me more. What does your mom say? What does dad say? Why you guys?
>> I think in a way, I grew up in a very traditional family in the sense that we had to be very respectful of our dad
because he is the clan leader, and my mom is a shaman healer.
>> Oh, wow.
>> So, we were -- and being girls, you had to be respectful. You had to have good manners. You had to be ->> It's all girls?
>> -- you had to be modest.
>> Do you have any boys?
>> Yes. We have one brother.
>> Okay. Did he go to college?
>> He started. After his [inaudible] in college he dropped out because he have a wife and his kids so that was his
problem, right? He have a wife and kids so he have to start working to support his family. The fact that school was
really hard for him when he was much younger. He was the one family, he had to do third grade twice because he just
wasn't that bright. It's just really hard on him. He had to do third grade twice. So definitely much harder on him with the
added family obligation, but he does work as a certified nursing assistant. His wife work in food service, and it takes
him a very long time, and his friends are graduating this year. Last year, this year, his peers are graduating with him in
high school, they're graduating from college, and he just decide that his wife wasn't going to go back to school. So, he's
going to go back to school. So, he's trying to enroll back to Fresno City in the fall. And but I think because he's much
older now and he's more mature and he's seeing that his children -- he's going to have four kids so he's thinking about
how can he provide for his children now and seeing his peers graduate, and I think that he's having a much more mature
trying to kind of thinking about what he wants his life to be. [Inaudible] work so hard.
>> What about your sisters? Why did they graduate? Why does your family tell your sisters graduate? Who was the first
one that went?
>> My sister -- like my first sister graduated with her associate in accounting I think it is, but because she also receive
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support from her husband, her husband is working. And so, she have children.
>> I don't know if you have to go.
>> No. She have children when her husband was working. So, I think in a way, more women who go to school and who
have a supportive husband [inaudible] school might be much older. One thing, they have a job that can support the
family and support her while she go to school or they're much older so they already graduated from college so they can
support her, right? And that is also one reason why men don't go to college. If they get married, they will work and then
the woman, the wife, will be encouraged to go to college.
>> Oh, really?
>> If the culture of their family is very supportive of her going to college because some traditionally is not supportive of
her going to college at all.
>> Is it a matriarchal culture or is it a non-matriarchal culture?
>> Yes. It's very patriarchy in the past. They don't have support for young wives to go to college, but now what I see
there's much more support for the wife to go to college while the husband work and support the family because the
husband is much older. It's just easier for him to work while she go to college or he'll be graduated. So, in my
household, I think they always encourage like, "You need to go to college," and you didn't have to be the most
successful student, but you just have to go to college.
>> But it started with your sister who is a female.
>> No.
>> It started with your brother.
>> Whether she wanted to go to college or not.
>> What?
>> We were told to go to college.
>> So, who was the first one who went to college though?
>> My sisters.
>> Okay. So, your sister went before you, both of them.
>> Yes. But I didn't think I went to college because my sister went to college.
>> But that may have opened the path for you though. That you saw they were successful, no? No effect?
>> No. No effect. Because when I came to college as a freshman, I was helping my sister who was a senior. So, there
was no effect the fact my sister went to college. That's what inspired me I want to go to college. It was just something
that you do. When my sister applied to college, I wasn't thinking like, "I'm going to go to college because my sister went
to college," because I didn't think there was any other path.
>> Oh, interesting. Okay.
>> I just think that, for me, it was the case that's something you do and then going to college that's also something you
do.
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>> Did your friends go to college from high school?
>> Yes.
>> Oh, okay. They went to college.
>> So, yes. Yes. My friends went to college. Actually, not all my friends went to college but going to college was just
something you do, and I didn't think of any other alternative. Like with me, with my family, there wasn't alternative.
You just go to college because that's just what you do.
>> Interesting. But it started with your sister. [Inaudible] effect or nothing. Okay. Great. So, you told me about the
barriers of culture, gender. This last part is, do you think that -- have you ever experienced any microaggressions or
macro-aggressions in higher education or did that affect you or nothing?
>> I think like simply -- like I don't think I have ever experienced anything else really aggressive but I think definitely
where people -- and I think sometimes I think on it, the fact that I'm a poor student and I know that they are certain
supports that poor students get although we don't have a lot of support. I can find the small pool of support that we have.
But, of course, I have experienced times where I feel like, for example, people talk about being a Hmong student. Oh,
you know, "You must be really shy because you're a Hmong student," but you don't look your counselor in the eye
because you must be Hmong. You're Asian, right? I'm like, "No, I don't look my counselors in the eye just because I
don't like to look my counselor in the eye."
[ Laughter ]
[Inaudible] that's just more like a me thing. Not like, it's also like a cultural thing, but I'm not being seen as an
individual.
>> Oh, okay. Yes.
>> I think more like as, "Oh, if you're Asian, so this is how Asian people or Asian students are," and I'm not seen as an
individual student who also have individual characteristics.
>> True. Good point. But you kind of are a leader on campus. I mean, you are.
>> And so what other people like to call it. But I do -- I think a lot of the time I experience it without even knowing
what they are. And I think a lot of Southeast Asian students experience oppression and micro-aggression, but we don't
because we cannot define it. We think that's just the way it is. Yes. Like me just going to college because I was never
offered another alternative. I just think it's normal that everyone went to college. It wasn't until I was in college that I
learned that not everybody went to college.
>> Twelve percent. [Inaudible]. So now the last part, I want to actually just talk about Missy, and also, you could talk
about -- and then this -- last page, everything you want. Just down the line. I'll be taking notes. Everything you want,
and I actually might be typing. What do you think about your personal -- we talked about your family already, but what
were personal enablers that -- what about your personality that enabled you, A which is very rare, four years is literally
very rare. Why were you able to get a master's which makes you even to the 1% mark of the planet, why were you able - what are these personal enablers. I'm going to type this out.
>> I think I was always a very curious person. You know, I was the reader. I was the bookworm. I liked to read a lot.
>> So, you're a reader. Okay.
>> I was the bookworm in high school. I was always very curious about how things worked. So even when I received
really bad grade because I went to the University of Minnesota for one semester, I couldn't come out that and thought of
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how can I suffer through my grades. How can I [inaudible] my GPA? So, I was always asking those questions.
>> Inquisitive. Okay.
>> Yes. I was always asking those questions. Even up to other people to myself. So, I was always very curious about
things. So even when I graduated and I went to graduate school, I was always very curious.
>> Why did you want to go to graduate school because that's very rare.
>> I went to graduate school because one thing I wasn't very satisfied where I was at in my life, and I got a [inaudible]
degree and during the time that I was at school, at my political and social ideology about life changed. I went ->> Why and how?
>> -- to graduate school because I wanted to do something different. I wanted to see what else I can do. And I think my
family was very supportive of me going to graduate school because I'm the first to go to graduate school.
>> Right. You're the first.
>> My immediate family, not in my large family but in my immediate family I was the first one to go to graduate
school.
>> What about the large family? Talk about your large family.
>> And then my cousin ->> Talk about them. Did they go to college?
>> -- my cousin, my second cousin, she also -- she went to graduate school before me.
>> Okay. In what?
>> She say social work. She graduate this year, but in my immediate family I was the first one to go to graduate school,
and my parents have been very supportive of that. I moved out the house. You're Asian. You don't do that, right? But,
they have been supportive in the sense that they don't put a lot of pressure on me like what I have to do as a Hmong
woman. It's also because my personality. I have done bad things, of course, you know? I'm a young person. I do bad
things. I broke all kind of rules, you know? But the fact that I was able to always bounce back and do something good
and go to school, my family have trust in me. Because they have trust in me, I didn't have to worry so much about what
my family think of me. I don't have to worry about, do I have to go home and finish the dishes? Do I have to go
[inaudible]?
>> So you think the ordering your family because you're the third. No, you're the fourth.
>> No. I think that my youngest sibling, because they're much younger and they grew up in a different generation,
different culture and they're athletes and musicians, they were able to open a different perspective for my parents.
[Inaudible] mainstream high school students are like -- and I thought it was really hard for them because we didn't have
a lot of money to support their [inaudible] activity because there was much more mainstream than we were when I was
in high school. And what make it easier for me seeing [inaudible] rules that I probably wouldn't have because then my
parents just adjust [inaudible]. They were able to adjust to it. They were able to adjust to the fact that my siblings were
athletes, they were musicians, they were [inaudible] leaders, and then they became more open. [Inaudible] household is
still traditional, my parents were able to adapt and adjust to the different things that the children were doing.
>> You kind of mentioned that your father and mother are actual leaders in the community. So, does that affect you as
well? Because you are also a leader so did that -file:///C/...20uploads/Central%20Valley%20Southeast%20Asian%20Successful%20Voices/Files%20for%20upload/9_SeeXiongHF.clean.txt[3/10/2022 9:01:25 AM]
>> [Inaudible] mean in the sense that I have to be -- I couldn't do bad, bad things. I couldn't be a bad person. We didn't
run around do things that we shouldn't be doing, but we are able to run around and do things that we wanted to do.
>> Wow.
>> [Inaudible] think that would be positive for us. So, I could run around and I could volunteer. I could do community
work. I could do all that and I never would have to go home. But the fact that I was doing things, I was running around
doing things that would give me positive impact and my family trust that because I was able to know that -- took off my
shoes, respect my elders, go to family events. I was able to do things that benefit the family when I can, and then they
leave me alone so I run around and do my own thing.
>> Oh, great. Okay.
>> So, I didn't really have that burden of being a Hmong woman that most some of my peers have.
>> Did they push you? Also do that? Because you're also a leader so it's kind of some weird -- some parallel.
>> No. My parents are not doing well in the community organizing sense like mainstream community organizing. But I
think their own leadership definitely impact how I see myself and when I see myself doing leadership work, I want to do
things that reminds me of how my parents are. I want to be able to have a certain kind of impact on my community the
way they did. And also, because I want to do things that will be honorable. Again, choosing something that the Asian
community will see as something negative I guess would be always do something that would be honorable to our
parents so [inaudible] respectful to our family. Taking that and shape it to the way that works for me, that I like work for
me but also works for my family.
>> Great.
>> So, I didn't have to struggle with that family conflict.
>> Wow. Okay. Okay. So, this is the very end of the interview. Down the line, what do you want -- I'm going to actually
type your things. This is the suggestion part. I literally will type it, and, you know, ideally, I would love to meet with the
administrators and tell them, "Well, you know the students want this, this, this, this, this." All right, down the line, what
do you want and need at Fresno State -- well, you're actually a very successful candidate, but what do we need at Fresno
to make more Missy's in four years and more Missy's in [inaudible] program. Let's start. Classes, what do you want?
Workshops, what do you want? Education, you talked about EOP. Let's go down the line. First, let's start with classes.
What classes do you want to see?
>> [Inaudible].
>> Take your time. Take your time. You could think about it. Classes. [Inaudible]. And if you have to leave, that's fine.
I don't want to take up your time. [Inaudible] workshop.
>> [Inaudible]. Down the line ->> Down the line.
>> -- how does college cultivate in your household?
>> [Inaudible] so just tell me all the classes you want the professors, co-ethnics, workshops. What do you want at
Fresno State?
>> Oh, what do I want at Fresno State?
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>> Just wants? To make more Missy's.
>> I'm a huge believer that diversity is never enough. I like the idea of hiring more ethnic professor but I would prefer a
more decolonized curriculum.
>> More ethnic professors. What's a decolonized curriculum?
>> To me, diversity is never enough because you can hire a very diversity. We have a lot of professor of color and they
can still teach a very wide systematic curriculum because they don't question it. So, to me, diversity is not enough. I
think we need a curriculum that's decolonized. Like my friend told me that the history department is very white. They
only learn about Latin America, the Americas, the US, and the only Asian classes available in the history department is
East Asian, the history of East Asian, right? So, that's what I think about. The history department could hire as many
Asian faculty as they can but if their curriculum for these faculty to teach is still very Eurocentric, very Americacentered, then it doesn't work.
>> Okay. So, you want more Southeast Asian classes?
>> I want more classes to focus on the students who are taking those classes. The fact that there's no say is a ->> So, southeast Asian class. Be specific. Southeast Asian literature, Southeast Asian religion?
>> Local community focused class.
>> Okay. So, you want a Southeast Asian community focused class?
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> The fact that API group on campus is Southeast Asian.
>> So southeast Asian focused class. Okay. And you want it on community. Do you want it on religion? Do you want it
on mental health? Do you want it on psychology?
>> History.
>> History? Okay. What else?
>> I want more resources that are culturally competent in the sense that provides spaces and provides opportunities for
us students to seek help in a way that they are comfortable with. So, what I'm talking about, students will not go to -they will go to a resource center and they will stop going because the counseling, like we were talking bad counseling,
they will stop going. The resource still exist but the student will not go anymore because the resource did not cater to the
student. The resource are discourage the student, do not really give the student what they want. They stop going. But the
resource [inaudible] we still fund the resource so I want the resource center on campus, I feel like to not give up on
students.
>> Okay. The center to not give up on students, but do you need an Asian-dedicated center?
>> Yes.
>> Do you need an Asian director?
>> We need -- historically they have never had a full-time staff that will provide API resources and provides service to
API students. So, [inaudible] have never had a [inaudible] staff [inaudible] that they do.
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>> But they have it at other Cal States.
>> They have it at other Cal States.
>> At many of them and UC's.
>> Yes. And sometimes these centers are funded by grants, right? So, sometimes they're funded by university if it's
[inaudible] departments, sometimes they're by [inaudible] grants special program and that's the hard part. Our university
talks about we don't have money but I know it's how you allocate the money. So, we need -- because we are -- Fresno, I
believe is the university, the CSU that has the most Hmong students. We have a large population of Southeast Asian
students here on campus but we never have a full-time staff that support [inaudible] students.
>> So, you need a full-time staff.
>> We have 13.2%.
>> That is only -- is dedicated to Asian students?
>> Yes.
>> Dedicated to API students. Okay.
>> Not a full-time staff. A lot of our faculties have a gift, they volunteer their time, but they shouldn't be burdened with
that because they have a full-time job, and when they have to choose, they choose to focus on their full-time jobs not the
student services. So, we definitely need more of that. I think we need more focus on our ethnic class in the sense that we
need our advisor to be competent and working with the student class. From what I heard from some student is the
advisors they help the student, don't ask for help. But the student [inaudible] don't show up. So that's this disconnect. I
think we need more focus on -- because as an Asian person just like nationally as an Asian person, it's hard for you to
talk about your oppression because someone's always going to be like, "This group of people are more oppressed than
you are. You should see your own privilege," right? So, it's never okay for us to talk about our problem. Even when
[inaudible] issue. The [inaudible] of legal resident is such a small conversation because national conversation is focused
on undocumented ->> Latinos.
>> --immigrants and Latinos, but it makes us feel like we shouldn't talk about our own problems because it's so small.
So, the national conversation minimize our struggles. So, it make it feel like it's wrong if we talk about our struggles.
So, we need more [inaudible]. Like we need workshops.
>> On what?
>> We need to bring mainstream ->> Workshops.
>> -- we need to bring mainstream Asian America to Fresno State.
>> In what way?
>> We need more Asian-American speakers. My experience at Fresno State, just my personal experience at Fresno
State, I have never gone to a campus-wide event where the speaker was Asian-American.
>> Wow.
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>> Our [inaudible] club, brought warm food here [inaudible] of course but it's [inaudible] student club brought them.
But the university will never bring more food here. Why not? So, my experience with Fresno State for four, five, six
years now, I've never attend an event where it's Asian-America speaker. The music department, the humanities have a
lot of events where they have positions and readers and writers for all Asia America, but it's a college-focused event. So,
they bring a lot of Korean and Japanese musicians.
>> Wow.
>> Yes. The rest of the university, the rest of our students who are not -- the majority -- only a small percentage of API
students are in the humanities. Like they're mostly in the performing arts. Only a small percentage of them are in there.
So, the majority of us are a part of the campus that aren't even involved with that part of campus so we wouldn't
necessarily go to those events. When I see it, I don't see them as campus-wide events. I see them as college [inaudible].
And campus-wide events are events that are usually sponsored by division of student affairs. Those kinds of events
where it's this big thing. There's posters. There's a whole day dedicated to it. Never a API person.
>> Very important to know. All right. That is -- thank you. I wrote that down.
>> Yes.
>> Anything else? I want to be respectful of your time, so.
>> No. I [inaudible], I think too often we focus so much on culture and academic success that we think that to be
successful that's all you need. Cultural preservation. To be [inaudible] in your culture and to do really well in class, but
everything else that affect you as a person or as a community we're not given an opportunity to be exposed to it.
[Inaudible] not [inaudible] to be exposed to that. Social justice org. We're not given the opportunity to be exposed to
that.
>> Social justice org. Okay. That's so great. Thank you so much, Missy. This is a great contribution to Fresno State so
thank you. Okay. And I will email you this.
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effects because what you say will affect the next generation of southeast Asians, so you can speak of yourself but also of
the community, the entire Hmong community. You can speak of that as well because we're looking for, not just
individual stories, but collective stories to improve the graduation rates. So, 12% is low but improved from 7%. So, let's
start. Can you say your name?
>> So, my name is See Xiong. It's spelled S as in Sam, ee, last name is Xiong. And today is Wednesday, June 8th, 2013.
>> And can you give me verbal permission?
>> And I give my permission to be recorded today.
>> All right. Okay. Thank you so much. What is the gender that you identify as?
>> I identify as a female.
>> What is your birth year and also what is the ethnic [inaudible] that you identify as?
>> I was born in 1989, and I identify as a Hmong person.
>> Okay. What was your undergraduate major? What's your graduate major?
>> My undergraduate major was criminology with emphasis on law enforcement, and my graduate major is counseling
emphasis on student affairs and college counseling.
>> Are you a first generation, second, or third generation?
>> I'm a 1.5 generation.
>> What is the highest graduation rate -- what is your highest education rate of your mom and dad?
>> My parents never received any formal education so I was an unidentified.
>> What is your GPA?
>> My undergraduate -- I graduate in my undergrad program with a 3.12. My current graduate program GPA is 4.0.
>> Excellent. What is your ultimate degree aspiration?
>> I'll be graduating in the spring of 2018 with my master of science in counseling degree, and then my aspiration is to
achieve a Ph.D. degree in education.
>> Excellent. EdD or Ph.D. [inaudible]?
>> Ph.D. in education.
>> Okay. Great. Was your high school -- oh sorry. What was your socioeconomic background? Were you working
class, middle class, affluent, and also what high school? Was it public or private?
>> We came to the United States in '94 so my parents never worked. So, we're considered low-income because I was on
welfare until I was 18, and I went to public school.
>> What high school?
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>> I went to four different high schools. So, I went to McLane High School in Fresno. Then I transferred to Clovis High
in Clovis, and then I transferred back to Sunnyside High School. That's where I graduated. I also did a career path
program at Duncan Polytech in Fresno.
>> Okay. Excellent. What was the ethnic makeup of all the high schools that you went to?
>> I spent most of my time in Fresno definitely. Most of all the schools I went to in Fresno have a large [inaudible]
Asian, especially south Asian student body ->> What type?
>> -- and Hispanic mixed student body. There were definitely white Hispanic and white people. When I went to Clovis
High, there was a definitely a lot of more white and white Hispanic. There was a small South Asian community
[inaudible]. There's some Hmong folks living in Clovis as well.
>> Okay. Great. Do Hmong students have strong relationships with administrators and faculty? Why or why not?
>> Based on my experience, when I was in undergrad, I didn't have that kind of experience. I think that I didn't feel like
it was something you can actually have. Like you can have a good relationship with faculty and staff who could support
you. I didn't join a lot of clubs so I didn't have an advisor or I didn't have -- at that time, I graduated 2012 so prior to
2012, we didn't have the different college academic advising center. So, I didn't have people scheduling me to meet with
them. And I didn't do really poorly so I didn't get caught in academic referral, so I didn't really meet with any staff who
could support me. I didn't know administration. I didn't know the difference between staff, IT, administration, but my
graduate program I think as a much older student, I have more confidence to build a good relationship with faculty and
staff and to make sure I feel that I can support my academic endeavors.
>> Do Hmong students in general?
>> So I see Hmong students in general. I don't see a lot of interaction with faculty, staff, and the administrator.
>> Interesting.
>> I know a few students who do have that kind of support system but I just personally, I believe that a large number of
Hmong students don't have that kind of support system because we wasn't raise to ask questions or ask for help so
[inaudible].
>> Can you speak more of the cultural?
>> How I was raised was you just supposed to work hard, and you didn't ask questions or you didn't show people that
you needed help. If you have a problem you just have to work really hard and you'll be successful. Faculty, staff, and
administrator on campus are very supportive but unless you make it known that you have a problem or you're having a
concern, then they wouldn't even know that you even exist. So, I think coming from that kind of culture makes it really
hard for the student and the staff and faculty to actually connect.
>> Good point. All right. So, what was the teacher's expectation of you and what was the teacher's expectations of your
co-ethnics in school?
>> My overall experience, I think that the expectation is that we are the group of hardworking individuals to begin with
and just being [inaudible], in general we do have a good number of Hmong staff faculty and now Dr. Melissa as
administrator. I think this idea that Asians students, especially Hmong students who -- the largest group of Asian
students on campus are Hmong, so we work hard and we have perseverance and we are very persistent. So, we'll
definitely be successful.
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>> Okay. Excellent. Thank you. Do you remember any notable media depictions of your group? And I guess the next
question I'll ask after that is, do you feel like you were academically prepared for college?
>> [Inaudible] depiction, I think we are always on the news whenever there's a domestic violence dispute.
>> Oh, what?
>> Domestic violence.
>> Oh, really?
>> Especially in the Valley. No, I think everywhere. Like the Valley here in Fresno, California, Minnesota. If there is a
domestic violence dispute or someone die, it become this media frenzy about culture.
>> What do you mean by domestic violence? Define it.
>> Domestic violence, I'm thinking more of intimate spousal abuse that lead to violence, that lead to death. And the
media really sensationalize these stories and then ask a lot of question about how culture can play into these violence,
and I think that's how my community has been depicted in the media. That, there's always this question about the
culture, how the culture plays into -- contributing to domestic violence and spousal abuse, and I think that's how people
know our community other than Gran Torino of course.
>> What's Gran Torino?
>> Gran Torino is a movie. Clint Eastwood made it. He directed it. It was about a Hmong family in Detroit, Michigan,
and how they interact with their white [inaudible] neighbor. And I think, it was a great movie.
>> Oh, was it? Okay. I understand.
>> In terms of, as a Christian, it was great, but in terms of how it stereotypes and how it misleads Hmong, it
misrepresent Hmong culture.
>> How?
>> For example, there was a scene where the boy offended his neighbor so the parents took [inaudible] food and to offer
it as restitution to the neighbor, and the wife [inaudible]. [Inaudible] who was played by Clint Eastwood, but the parents
were really persistent and came with this food, and he didn't want any of the food. But that's not what Hmong people do.
We don't take food to our neighbors as a way to say we're sorry. And that's something that we see -- that I have seen
with more like Thai culture. They will offer food, I think from my understanding, it's more like Buddhist culture
because you give foods to the monks and doing weddings and other ceremonies, this gift -- will give gift in food. So, I
didn't think that was a really good depictions of Hmong culture. I don't know what culture does that, but I know my
culture we don't apologize by insisting the person that we have offended take food from us.
>> That is true.
>> Yes. It's really true. It's really weird [inaudible] think that.
>> That's interesting.
>> People ask; right, after the movie came out, and I was still in my undergraduate study then. People will ask, "This is
how your community do. Is this what happens," and I know a professor who teach Asian-American studies or teach
about like cross-cultural [inaudible]. They use Gran Torino as a movie about Hmong people and I don't think that is fair.
I don't think that's accurate to continue to use Gran Torino as a lesson about Hmong community unless you're willing to
talk about the movie itself, how it stereotypes Hmong community.
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>> Right. Great point. Do you think that you were academically prepared for college?
>> I don't think I was prepared for college.
>> In what way?
>> Well, back when I got to Fresno State, the standard was much different. I did well on my SAT, my ACT enough -- I
did well enough that I didn't have to restart program. That's what we call summer school. But I didn't think I was
prepared in the sense that culturally, academically, like the academic culture, I wasn't prepared to enter the academic
culture because I feel like K-12, that's something I was just obligated to do. I was forced to go to school. My parents
will get jail time if they have too many absences. I didn't want to get them in trouble. That's just something you do. You
just go to school. So, I didn't think about college. That's also something you do as well. People apply for college after
that. This is also something you do. So, when I got to college, it was like, "Whoa. You actually have to work. You
actually have to attend class." There's no one holding your hand, and I wasn't prepared for that. I wasn't prepared to be
independent.
>> Okay. Great point. All right. So, we're on the second part is barriers. So, now at this point, you're going to talk about
your own personal barriers but actually your community barriers. So, do you find that you had any barriers to your
educational success such as your four-year graduation rate, and also what are the Hmong barriers to academic success?
>> So, my four year in undergrad.
>> Did you do it in four?
>> Yes, I did it in four.
>> Tell me more. Please tell me more. How did you do it in four? Please.
>> So, I started as a pre-psychology major, but I did all my GE. I did all my GE that I needed to do before I get into my
actual program.
>> You came here straight.
>> Yes. I came straight here. I cannot remember how I applied. I remember applying for Fresno City because they came
through. They applied all the student in class with Fresno City as a backup, but I don't even remember how I applied to
Fresno State. That's just kind of how crazy it was back then because we didn't have ambassadors to come in and
[inaudible] have ambassadors now. Because myself, as an ambassador that go out to the high schools and help facilitate
process. I think my four years -- what worked well for me was that I just went to class, and I just knew I had to do well
in class and also my -- I study -- I was pre-psychology and then I switched to criminology. You know, it was just
something I was really interested in. So, I was just really interested in that program so I wasn't constantly changing.
What works for me was that I didn't have a lot of counseling hours. Like I wasn't an EOP student and that's something
that really followed me for a long time.
>> What is EOP?
>> EOP stands for Educational Opportunity Program. So, EOP is a federally funded program, and at Fresno State -- in
order to get into OP, you have to actually apply a different application. So, you apply to Fresno State and then you apply
to the EOP program. Not every student gets accepted. EOP is only for low-income, primarily low income first
generation students. My other siblings got to EOP but I didn't know, and I didn't even apply to EOP.
>> They came before you or after?
>> Before me and after me.
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>> So you come from a family that goes to college?
>> Yes. I come from a family that ->> That's very rare.
>> Yes. So, my two sisters. One did her associates. The second sister she got her bachelor. I mean, she have kids while
she was going to school. I was the third one to go to college.
>> Oh, you're the third one. That's a big difference. You didn't mention that.
>> So, [inaudible] college.
>> Yes. It's very impressive. All girls?
>> All girls, and I think that also play to it as well. That we're girls so girls can have a more kind of persistent in going
to college. That wouldn't work for me because I didn't go to counseling [inaudible] staff and [inaudible] support I should
have. I did a national exchange program. Fresno State used to have this thing called National Exchange Program. It's a
system-wide program ->> Let me write this down. National -- what is a national ->> National Exchange Program.
>> What is a National Exchange Program?
>> So, you can look it up. The school has to pay a fee to be a part of this system. So, the United States and Canada. So,
schools from Puerto Rico, the United States, and Canada can be a participated program. You pay a fee -- the school pays
a fee to participate in the program. Students can do either one semester or two semesters. They can go to a different
university, pay the school tuition. So, for example, I would pay Fresno State tuition; I will go to a different school.
>> Wow.
>> So I went to the University of Minnesota in Twin City for a semester.
>> Wow.
>> [Inaudible] one semester or two semesters. So, I would take classes at UMF which cost a lot more, but I would pay
Fresno State Tuition which is a lot less.
>> Wow. Okay. And it's called National Exchange Program? We don't have anymore?
>> National Student Exchange Program.
>> We don't have it anymore?
>> We don't have it anymore. So, National Student Exchange Program. I think it's amazing. I like that, but I didn't have
that counseling support. I really struggled when I went there because it's such a big university, and I wasn't prepared for
school -- college to begin with. So, when I came back I had to do a full summer school. I had to do full-time summer
school just to bring my GPA back up and to graduate in four years. So, I was really fortunate that my program has a
[inaudible] certificate so I was able to do it during the summer and then fulfill my program courses that I needed. And
then I took program courses. So, I think it was just a matter of luck or opportunity that I was able to see that I can do
that full-time summer school.
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>> I mean, you're the first four year I've ever met actually in these interviews.
>> Really?
>> Yes.
>> Oh, wow.
>> I mean, I want to know, everyone is six years. Everyone is six.
>> It depends on the major as well. My program, I believe my program can allow you to graduate in four years.
>> So, you can?
>> Economics, psychology, you can graduate in four years. There are other programs like women's studies that you can
do in four years. English, you can do in four years. The humanities you can do in four years. And social science you can
do in four years. What I feel that's preventing students from doing it in four years is when they change their majors
because they don't know what they want to do.
>> Change major. Okay.
>> Or they are taking classes that they don't need. Sometimes they don't know that they don't need those classes.
>> Don't need. Okay.
>> For example, my sister she was told at the beginning of the semester that she had enough classes to graduate. At the
end of the semester, a different counselor told her that no, she didn't fulfill all her classes. She still have some classes
she needed to take. So, she was ready to just be done, and now she's not done. She walked but she still have to take
classes to finish.
>> How many?
>> I think two. One or two. But the fact that she had to come back and finish them, it's very frustrating in the fact that in
the beginning of the semester one counselor said she's good to go, and then another counselor says she's not.
>> So bad counseling.
>> Yes. Bad counseling and no one is taking responsibility for that except the students. So, students [inaudible] bad
counseling. At the end of the day, the student is the only one who's affected by it.
>> Right.
>> Because when you thought in general that you're ready to graduate, you don't need any more classes. You already
registered for all classes that you need, you're not thinking about -- you're thinking about just graduating and doing what
you have to do. You're not thinking about coming back to school. You're not thinking about saving up money to pay for
summer school tuition or fall tuition.
>> Good point.
>> [Inaudible] the student not the counselor who just didn't do the job.
>> Can you think of other barriers particularly for males, like male Hmong? Because we know it's a gender issue for
graduation. What is the issue? But what are their barrier?
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>> Based on what I see, based on the male students that I work with and my peers and my [inaudible], I think has to do
with how we have a culture, a Hmong culture that doesn't -- that expect boys to become man the moment they get
married, right? So, you get to be boys your whole life. The moment you get married, you're just expected to be a man.
You're just expected to just know and there's not an urgency to train boys. Basically, what I've seen is as a woman, we
have to cook, clean, do all those domestic things since we're born. So, for the longest time, we have to learn to care of
ourselves, we have to take care of our brothers and our parents. So, we're always looking for ways on how to support
ourselves, right? Men, they don't. They just learn how to live to be men, and they are just expected to just know how to
be men later when they become a man, and they're just expected to get a job and support their family. But it's not with
that -- the habit, they were not trained to acquire this habit of acquiring support. So, when they come to college, they
just expect them to know. But they don't have this lifetime of learning that this is who you talk to. Like, it's okay to ask
for help, and it's okay to show that you're not really [inaudible] what you're doing. It's okay to be wrong. Just ask for
help.
>> Do you think -- you talked earlier about asking questions. They don't ask questions?
>> They don't ask questions. Yes. Rather it's about school. Like in general, they don't ask their classes. They don't ask
questions about what's missing.
>> So, you spoke about your sister got bad counseling, right?
>> Uh-huh.
>> So, are these Hmong men, are they getting bad counseling? What is their barrier? So, they don't ask questions. I don't
know about counseling but what are the other -- as growing masculinity they're not trained as a youngster to be
independent. Anything else?
>> I think -- like when I was in undergrad, we didn't have the academic counseling center. I think, yes, that's counseling.
Not going to your counselor.
>> Not going to your counselor.
>> Because even now with the Academic Counseling Center, they don't have the capacity to meet all students.
>> Okay. Of course.
>> So, students who go because they know something they want to go to the counseling either they want to talk about
something that they already know or they get referred by their professor. So, if you're a student who's doing okay; you
might have other problems. You might want to talk to them about grad school or whatever, but because you're not doing
bad, you're not doing poorly, your professor is not going to be referring you to counseling. And if they don't think that
you have a problem, you're not going to go to counseling on your own. And counselors, because you're not an at-risk
student, you're not marked as at-risk, they won't call you out because you're not marked as at-risk. So, they don't talk to
every student. If you're doing really good, they'll talk to you because you're doing really good. You're doing really bad,
they'll talk to you. But in my experience, if the student is smack in the middle, those are the students who are going to
graduate and most of them would be like, "I don't know what to do with my life." Bad counseling, lack of counseling,
lack of capacity on the resource side ->> Lack of capacity.
>> -- and the cultural [inaudible] affect how the student see themselves so they might not seek help because they're not
confident about seeking help. So, all of these things -- and when these things clash and that's why the student tends to be
like, they're just there. They just come to school.
>> So what is the alternative for a Hmong man or a woman if they don't go to college. What is the alternative -- what
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other jobs will they do?
>> Well, people I know who don't go to college they -- a lot of folks join the military. Some join right out of college.
Someone joined the military after years of not ->> Which military?
>> Most of them join the army because most of the ones I know join the army because it's much more prevalence. When
they think of the military, they think of the army. So, we have Army recruitment here. You see the Army all the time,
plus infantry. They don't join the Army right out of high school because those are not who join the Army; the military
right out of high school. They already think about joining it when they're graduating, right? So, there are some who join
years later. If they don't get through college, they'll work and then they'll join the military.
>> What kind of working will they do?
>> Full time. I know people who are nursing assistants. I know people who do factory work like warehouse work. I
know a couple of mailman. Like for me, the mailman I know have Bachelor's degrees.
>> That's a high-paying job. That's a high-paying job.
>> That's a high paying job but ->> Those are high paying.
>> -- the gentlemen that's doing -- they not hired [inaudible] because they have tenure, they're not hired full-time.
They're hired as per diem.
>> For mailman?
>> Or part time or per diem. So, they don't have the benefits. But the thing is, they have Bachelor's degrees ->> Interesting.
>> -- but they're not working in their field of studies and they're a mailman because it pays well and it's flexible. The
moment you're done with your route, you just go home. But those who aren't in school, I know they tend to be more like
factory jobs or services.
>> What's a factory job?
>> You can work in a warehouse.
>> But what do you do?
>> You do like shipments. I know a friend he works in a warehouse. So, he do like purchasing and inventory. I know a
couple of women who are certified nursing assistant because you can get certified nursing assistant certificate and you
just renew every other seven years, you just have to renew it. Those folks are the ones who work for the nurses but they
didn't go to school, and nursing school is very competitive.
>> Oh, is it? Okay.
>> Yes.
>> What about farming?
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>> Most Hmong youth farm because their parents farm, but they don't make it a living. I only know one student. He
have a bachelor degree. He have a financial job but he decided to do farming because that's he wanted to do. But that
was by choice. He already have a stable financial job. > Wow.
>> He wanted to do farming. But it's not his parents. It's he as the farmer. But most people I know, they don't do
farming with their family as the default. They're not a farmer. They do [inaudible] to support the parents. I know a
[inaudible] friend at Fresno State. He didn't graduate the year that I graduated. He was supposed to graduate but he still
have one class. He now went to that class. He's [inaudible] class so he never walk. My understanding was he joined the
military [inaudible] one class. I don't think he ever walked. The last I heard he said he joined the military but I don't
think he ever did. But he ended up being a salesman for solar panels, and I never heard from him again. And those are
the kinds of things. You start doing sales, services, homecare, factory warehouse, stuff like that. Very few outliers
[inaudible] optimal experience.
>> So something about your family is in particular that's very rare, you have three college graduates in your family.
What did your family do to get you -- I mean that's a very rare, right? How did your family get three college graduates
in one family?
>> We have four now. Five actually.
>> Tell me more. What does your mom say? What does dad say? Why you guys?
>> I think in a way, I grew up in a very traditional family in the sense that we had to be very respectful of our dad
because he is the clan leader, and my mom is a shaman healer.
>> Oh, wow.
>> So, we were -- and being girls, you had to be respectful. You had to have good manners. You had to be ->> It's all girls?
>> -- you had to be modest.
>> Do you have any boys?
>> Yes. We have one brother.
>> Okay. Did he go to college?
>> He started. After his [inaudible] in college he dropped out because he have a wife and his kids so that was his
problem, right? He have a wife and kids so he have to start working to support his family. The fact that school was
really hard for him when he was much younger. He was the one family, he had to do third grade twice because he just
wasn't that bright. It's just really hard on him. He had to do third grade twice. So definitely much harder on him with the
added family obligation, but he does work as a certified nursing assistant. His wife work in food service, and it takes
him a very long time, and his friends are graduating this year. Last year, this year, his peers are graduating with him in
high school, they're graduating from college, and he just decide that his wife wasn't going to go back to school. So, he's
going to go back to school. So, he's trying to enroll back to Fresno City in the fall. And but I think because he's much
older now and he's more mature and he's seeing that his children -- he's going to have four kids so he's thinking about
how can he provide for his children now and seeing his peers graduate, and I think that he's having a much more mature
trying to kind of thinking about what he wants his life to be. [Inaudible] work so hard.
>> What about your sisters? Why did they graduate? Why does your family tell your sisters graduate? Who was the first
one that went?
>> My sister -- like my first sister graduated with her associate in accounting I think it is, but because she also receive
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support from her husband, her husband is working. And so, she have children.
>> I don't know if you have to go.
>> No. She have children when her husband was working. So, I think in a way, more women who go to school and who
have a supportive husband [inaudible] school might be much older. One thing, they have a job that can support the
family and support her while she go to school or they're much older so they already graduated from college so they can
support her, right? And that is also one reason why men don't go to college. If they get married, they will work and then
the woman, the wife, will be encouraged to go to college.
>> Oh, really?
>> If the culture of their family is very supportive of her going to college because some traditionally is not supportive of
her going to college at all.
>> Is it a matriarchal culture or is it a non-matriarchal culture?
>> Yes. It's very patriarchy in the past. They don't have support for young wives to go to college, but now what I see
there's much more support for the wife to go to college while the husband work and support the family because the
husband is much older. It's just easier for him to work while she go to college or he'll be graduated. So, in my
household, I think they always encourage like, "You need to go to college," and you didn't have to be the most
successful student, but you just have to go to college.
>> But it started with your sister who is a female.
>> No.
>> It started with your brother.
>> Whether she wanted to go to college or not.
>> What?
>> We were told to go to college.
>> So, who was the first one who went to college though?
>> My sisters.
>> Okay. So, your sister went before you, both of them.
>> Yes. But I didn't think I went to college because my sister went to college.
>> But that may have opened the path for you though. That you saw they were successful, no? No effect?
>> No. No effect. Because when I came to college as a freshman, I was helping my sister who was a senior. So, there
was no effect the fact my sister went to college. That's what inspired me I want to go to college. It was just something
that you do. When my sister applied to college, I wasn't thinking like, "I'm going to go to college because my sister went
to college," because I didn't think there was any other path.
>> Oh, interesting. Okay.
>> I just think that, for me, it was the case that's something you do and then going to college that's also something you
do.
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>> Did your friends go to college from high school?
>> Yes.
>> Oh, okay. They went to college.
>> So, yes. Yes. My friends went to college. Actually, not all my friends went to college but going to college was just
something you do, and I didn't think of any other alternative. Like with me, with my family, there wasn't alternative.
You just go to college because that's just what you do.
>> Interesting. But it started with your sister. [Inaudible] effect or nothing. Okay. Great. So, you told me about the
barriers of culture, gender. This last part is, do you think that -- have you ever experienced any microaggressions or
macro-aggressions in higher education or did that affect you or nothing?
>> I think like simply -- like I don't think I have ever experienced anything else really aggressive but I think definitely
where people -- and I think sometimes I think on it, the fact that I'm a poor student and I know that they are certain
supports that poor students get although we don't have a lot of support. I can find the small pool of support that we have.
But, of course, I have experienced times where I feel like, for example, people talk about being a Hmong student. Oh,
you know, "You must be really shy because you're a Hmong student," but you don't look your counselor in the eye
because you must be Hmong. You're Asian, right? I'm like, "No, I don't look my counselors in the eye just because I
don't like to look my counselor in the eye."
[ Laughter ]
[Inaudible] that's just more like a me thing. Not like, it's also like a cultural thing, but I'm not being seen as an
individual.
>> Oh, okay. Yes.
>> I think more like as, "Oh, if you're Asian, so this is how Asian people or Asian students are," and I'm not seen as an
individual student who also have individual characteristics.
>> True. Good point. But you kind of are a leader on campus. I mean, you are.
>> And so what other people like to call it. But I do -- I think a lot of the time I experience it without even knowing
what they are. And I think a lot of Southeast Asian students experience oppression and micro-aggression, but we don't
because we cannot define it. We think that's just the way it is. Yes. Like me just going to college because I was never
offered another alternative. I just think it's normal that everyone went to college. It wasn't until I was in college that I
learned that not everybody went to college.
>> Twelve percent. [Inaudible]. So now the last part, I want to actually just talk about Missy, and also, you could talk
about -- and then this -- last page, everything you want. Just down the line. I'll be taking notes. Everything you want,
and I actually might be typing. What do you think about your personal -- we talked about your family already, but what
were personal enablers that -- what about your personality that enabled you, A which is very rare, four years is literally
very rare. Why were you able to get a master's which makes you even to the 1% mark of the planet, why were you able - what are these personal enablers. I'm going to type this out.
>> I think I was always a very curious person. You know, I was the reader. I was the bookworm. I liked to read a lot.
>> So, you're a reader. Okay.
>> I was the bookworm in high school. I was always very curious about how things worked. So even when I received
really bad grade because I went to the University of Minnesota for one semester, I couldn't come out that and thought of
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how can I suffer through my grades. How can I [inaudible] my GPA? So, I was always asking those questions.
>> Inquisitive. Okay.
>> Yes. I was always asking those questions. Even up to other people to myself. So, I was always very curious about
things. So even when I graduated and I went to graduate school, I was always very curious.
>> Why did you want to go to graduate school because that's very rare.
>> I went to graduate school because one thing I wasn't very satisfied where I was at in my life, and I got a [inaudible]
degree and during the time that I was at school, at my political and social ideology about life changed. I went ->> Why and how?
>> -- to graduate school because I wanted to do something different. I wanted to see what else I can do. And I think my
family was very supportive of me going to graduate school because I'm the first to go to graduate school.
>> Right. You're the first.
>> My immediate family, not in my large family but in my immediate family I was the first one to go to graduate
school.
>> What about the large family? Talk about your large family.
>> And then my cousin ->> Talk about them. Did they go to college?
>> -- my cousin, my second cousin, she also -- she went to graduate school before me.
>> Okay. In what?
>> She say social work. She graduate this year, but in my immediate family I was the first one to go to graduate school,
and my parents have been very supportive of that. I moved out the house. You're Asian. You don't do that, right? But,
they have been supportive in the sense that they don't put a lot of pressure on me like what I have to do as a Hmong
woman. It's also because my personality. I have done bad things, of course, you know? I'm a young person. I do bad
things. I broke all kind of rules, you know? But the fact that I was able to always bounce back and do something good
and go to school, my family have trust in me. Because they have trust in me, I didn't have to worry so much about what
my family think of me. I don't have to worry about, do I have to go home and finish the dishes? Do I have to go
[inaudible]?
>> So you think the ordering your family because you're the third. No, you're the fourth.
>> No. I think that my youngest sibling, because they're much younger and they grew up in a different generation,
different culture and they're athletes and musicians, they were able to open a different perspective for my parents.
[Inaudible] mainstream high school students are like -- and I thought it was really hard for them because we didn't have
a lot of money to support their [inaudible] activity because there was much more mainstream than we were when I was
in high school. And what make it easier for me seeing [inaudible] rules that I probably wouldn't have because then my
parents just adjust [inaudible]. They were able to adjust to it. They were able to adjust to the fact that my siblings were
athletes, they were musicians, they were [inaudible] leaders, and then they became more open. [Inaudible] household is
still traditional, my parents were able to adapt and adjust to the different things that the children were doing.
>> You kind of mentioned that your father and mother are actual leaders in the community. So, does that affect you as
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>> [Inaudible] mean in the sense that I have to be -- I couldn't do bad, bad things. I couldn't be a bad person. We didn't
run around do things that we shouldn't be doing, but we are able to run around and do things that we wanted to do.
>> Wow.
>> [Inaudible] think that would be positive for us. So, I could run around and I could volunteer. I could do community
work. I could do all that and I never would have to go home. But the fact that I was doing things, I was running around
doing things that would give me positive impact and my family trust that because I was able to know that -- took off my
shoes, respect my elders, go to family events. I was able to do things that benefit the family when I can, and then they
leave me alone so I run around and do my own thing.
>> Oh, great. Okay.
>> So, I didn't really have that burden of being a Hmong woman that most some of my peers have.
>> Did they push you? Also do that? Because you're also a leader so it's kind of some weird -- some parallel.
>> No. My parents are not doing well in the community organizing sense like mainstream community organizing. But I
think their own leadership definitely impact how I see myself and when I see myself doing leadership work, I want to do
things that reminds me of how my parents are. I want to be able to have a certain kind of impact on my community the
way they did. And also, because I want to do things that will be honorable. Again, choosing something that the Asian
community will see as something negative I guess would be always do something that would be honorable to our
parents so [inaudible] respectful to our family. Taking that and shape it to the way that works for me, that I like work for
me but also works for my family.
>> Great.
>> So, I didn't have to struggle with that family conflict.
>> Wow. Okay. Okay. So, this is the very end of the interview. Down the line, what do you want -- I'm going to actually
type your things. This is the suggestion part. I literally will type it, and, you know, ideally, I would love to meet with the
administrators and tell them, "Well, you know the students want this, this, this, this, this." All right, down the line, what
do you want and need at Fresno State -- well, you're actually a very successful candidate, but what do we need at Fresno
to make more Missy's in four years and more Missy's in [inaudible] program. Let's start. Classes, what do you want?
Workshops, what do you want? Education, you talked about EOP. Let's go down the line. First, let's start with classes.
What classes do you want to see?
>> [Inaudible].
>> Take your time. Take your time. You could think about it. Classes. [Inaudible]. And if you have to leave, that's fine.
I don't want to take up your time. [Inaudible] workshop.
>> [Inaudible]. Down the line ->> Down the line.
>> -- how does college cultivate in your household?
>> [Inaudible] so just tell me all the classes you want the professors, co-ethnics, workshops. What do you want at
Fresno State?
>> Oh, what do I want at Fresno State?
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>> Just wants? To make more Missy's.
>> I'm a huge believer that diversity is never enough. I like the idea of hiring more ethnic professor but I would prefer a
more decolonized curriculum.
>> More ethnic professors. What's a decolonized curriculum?
>> To me, diversity is never enough because you can hire a very diversity. We have a lot of professor of color and they
can still teach a very wide systematic curriculum because they don't question it. So, to me, diversity is not enough. I
think we need a curriculum that's decolonized. Like my friend told me that the history department is very white. They
only learn about Latin America, the Americas, the US, and the only Asian classes available in the history department is
East Asian, the history of East Asian, right? So, that's what I think about. The history department could hire as many
Asian faculty as they can but if their curriculum for these faculty to teach is still very Eurocentric, very Americacentered, then it doesn't work.
>> Okay. So, you want more Southeast Asian classes?
>> I want more classes to focus on the students who are taking those classes. The fact that there's no say is a ->> So, southeast Asian class. Be specific. Southeast Asian literature, Southeast Asian religion?
>> Local community focused class.
>> Okay. So, you want a Southeast Asian community focused class?
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> The fact that API group on campus is Southeast Asian.
>> So southeast Asian focused class. Okay. And you want it on community. Do you want it on religion? Do you want it
on mental health? Do you want it on psychology?
>> History.
>> History? Okay. What else?
>> I want more resources that are culturally competent in the sense that provides spaces and provides opportunities for
us students to seek help in a way that they are comfortable with. So, what I'm talking about, students will not go to -they will go to a resource center and they will stop going because the counseling, like we were talking bad counseling,
they will stop going. The resource still exist but the student will not go anymore because the resource did not cater to the
student. The resource are discourage the student, do not really give the student what they want. They stop going. But the
resource [inaudible] we still fund the resource so I want the resource center on campus, I feel like to not give up on
students.
>> Okay. The center to not give up on students, but do you need an Asian-dedicated center?
>> Yes.
>> Do you need an Asian director?
>> We need -- historically they have never had a full-time staff that will provide API resources and provides service to
API students. So, [inaudible] have never had a [inaudible] staff [inaudible] that they do.
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>> But they have it at other Cal States.
>> They have it at other Cal States.
>> At many of them and UC's.
>> Yes. And sometimes these centers are funded by grants, right? So, sometimes they're funded by university if it's
[inaudible] departments, sometimes they're by [inaudible] grants special program and that's the hard part. Our university
talks about we don't have money but I know it's how you allocate the money. So, we need -- because we are -- Fresno, I
believe is the university, the CSU that has the most Hmong students. We have a large population of Southeast Asian
students here on campus but we never have a full-time staff that support [inaudible] students.
>> So, you need a full-time staff.
>> We have 13.2%.
>> That is only -- is dedicated to Asian students?
>> Yes.
>> Dedicated to API students. Okay.
>> Not a full-time staff. A lot of our faculties have a gift, they volunteer their time, but they shouldn't be burdened with
that because they have a full-time job, and when they have to choose, they choose to focus on their full-time jobs not the
student services. So, we definitely need more of that. I think we need more focus on our ethnic class in the sense that we
need our advisor to be competent and working with the student class. From what I heard from some student is the
advisors they help the student, don't ask for help. But the student [inaudible] don't show up. So that's this disconnect. I
think we need more focus on -- because as an Asian person just like nationally as an Asian person, it's hard for you to
talk about your oppression because someone's always going to be like, "This group of people are more oppressed than
you are. You should see your own privilege," right? So, it's never okay for us to talk about our problem. Even when
[inaudible] issue. The [inaudible] of legal resident is such a small conversation because national conversation is focused
on undocumented ->> Latinos.
>> --immigrants and Latinos, but it makes us feel like we shouldn't talk about our own problems because it's so small.
So, the national conversation minimize our struggles. So, it make it feel like it's wrong if we talk about our struggles.
So, we need more [inaudible]. Like we need workshops.
>> On what?
>> We need to bring mainstream ->> Workshops.
>> -- we need to bring mainstream Asian America to Fresno State.
>> In what way?
>> We need more Asian-American speakers. My experience at Fresno State, just my personal experience at Fresno
State, I have never gone to a campus-wide event where the speaker was Asian-American.
>> Wow.
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>> Our [inaudible] club, brought warm food here [inaudible] of course but it's [inaudible] student club brought them.
But the university will never bring more food here. Why not? So, my experience with Fresno State for four, five, six
years now, I've never attend an event where it's Asian-America speaker. The music department, the humanities have a
lot of events where they have positions and readers and writers for all Asia America, but it's a college-focused event. So,
they bring a lot of Korean and Japanese musicians.
>> Wow.
>> Yes. The rest of the university, the rest of our students who are not -- the majority -- only a small percentage of API
students are in the humanities. Like they're mostly in the performing arts. Only a small percentage of them are in there.
So, the majority of us are a part of the campus that aren't even involved with that part of campus so we wouldn't
necessarily go to those events. When I see it, I don't see them as campus-wide events. I see them as college [inaudible].
And campus-wide events are events that are usually sponsored by division of student affairs. Those kinds of events
where it's this big thing. There's posters. There's a whole day dedicated to it. Never a API person.
>> Very important to know. All right. That is -- thank you. I wrote that down.
>> Yes.
>> Anything else? I want to be respectful of your time, so.
>> No. I [inaudible], I think too often we focus so much on culture and academic success that we think that to be
successful that's all you need. Cultural preservation. To be [inaudible] in your culture and to do really well in class, but
everything else that affect you as a person or as a community we're not given an opportunity to be exposed to it.
[Inaudible] not [inaudible] to be exposed to that. Social justice org. We're not given the opportunity to be exposed to
that.
>> Social justice org. Okay. That's so great. Thank you so much, Missy. This is a great contribution to Fresno State so
thank you. Okay. And I will email you this.
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